Accuracy and Ammo

[Mestral]

Someone on another forum is spouting some information, that I think my have been correct a long time ago, but I need some second opinions, from people who actually put a lot of lead downrange. (I got basic qualifying info and have watched others, but that isn't the same.)

How long ago did the army quit calling light machine guns "30 caliber" and start calling them 7.62?
(I am guessing it was about 1975)

If someone can't do better than 3 MOA accuracy on a scoped, bolt action rifle, should he blame his ammo?
(shooter said he was using "ball" ammo)

Is good hunting ammo considered "match grade" ?
(I say that is two different things)

[mac]

(I say that is two different things)

You are correct.,..mac

[Ludwig]

... How long ago did the army quit calling light machine guns "30 caliber" and start calling them 7.62?
(I am guessing it was about 1975)Since the M-14 was a 7.62 mm weapon when it was adopted by the Army in 1957, I'm guessing that the .30 cal. for all weapons using that ammo were redesignated.


If someone can't do better than 3 MOA accuracy on a scoped, bolt action rifle, should he blame his ammo?
(shooter said he was using "ball" ammo)Sure, blame the ammo, you'll feel better. You should always zero your rifle with the same ammunition you will use. Of course once you have zeroed the rifle then you have to compensate with your point of aim depending on the difference between the range being fired from the range at which the rifle was zeroed.


Is good hunting ammo considered "match grade" ?
(I say that is two different things)Match ammunition has tight tolerances and strict quality control to make it more consistent and accurate than cheaper general-use ammo. If I were to hunt game at long ranges, such as prong-horned antelope or mountain goat, I would use match grade. For general Texas style hunting, general-use ammo should suffice. Just be sure to zero your rifle with the same ammo you will use for hunting.

[Mestral]

Since the M-14 was a 7.62 mm weapon when it was adopted by the Army in 1957, I'm guessing that the .30 cal. for all weapons using that ammo were redesignated.OK, I knew it as a long time ago, just didn't know it was that long ago.

The guy I am discussing this with doesn't (yet) know there is a difference between
the .308 cartridge and the 7.62x51, so I might be on a fool's errand. Maybe I should
start talking about the 7.62x39 or the 7.62x54R, just to mess with him :))


Sure, blame the ammo, you'll feel better. You should always zero your rifle with the same ammunition you will use. Of course once you have zeroed the rifle then you have to compensate with your point of aim depending on the difference between the range being fired from the range at which the rifle was zeroed.
...Zero'ing and stuff is pretty elementary, but he maintains there is enough variation in 308 "ball" ammo to prevent accuracy better than 3 MOA. Again, I might be on a fool's errand.

[Grasshopperglock]

Military 'ball' ammo will only group 3"-4". That being the steel core.

I have a few thousand rounds of 5.56 and the best it'll do is 3" at 100 yards. Using a Timmey 1.5# trigger. 16" barrel, off the bench.

The problem is the rotational balance of the bullet. Nothing is matched either. Not in weight, case length, or powder charge. The assembly line military grade stuff just isn't accurate.

So I you're thinking it's you. It's not. Thinking it's the rifle. It's not. It's the ammo.

[sojourner truth]

Old Chinese proverb... "It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools".:))

The true test of any weapon or ammo is... does it do the job when needed.

[Grasshopperglock]

I like to shoot the tacks that hold the paper target up.

1/4" at 100 yards x 4.

Hand loads matched to each other and a power charge matched to the barrel. FMJ.

Out the crate 5.56 NATO ammo? Yeah, good luck with that. 3" group around the outside of the tack. Bipod on a bench. Fine duplex scope.

[kantwin]

Be of the local indoor gun ranges had some range reload 9mm that every 5th round or so won?t fully eject due to low load of powder.

[fchafey]

I have a Lee Progressive 1000 reloader and if you go to fast it will do that with the powder. A good rhythm and one can do 200 rounds pretty quick, as 200 rounds is all the four tubes hold for 4o cal.

[Mestral]

Be of the local indoor gun ranges had some range reload 9mm that every 5th round or so won?t fully eject due to low load of powder.I would want to know who reloaded that ammo. 2% fail to fire is unacceptable, let alone 20%. What does that range do with Fail to Fire ammo?


I have a Lee Progressive 1000 reloader and if you go to fast it will do that with the powder. A good rhythm and one can do 200 rounds pretty quick, as 200 rounds is all the four tubes hold for 4o cal.
How fast is "pretty quick? 7 minutes?
I could see how too fast would be a problem, as the powder might not have time to drop into the case.

[kantwin]

There are few fail to fire rounds, in my experience there.
The ones that fail to eject do fire, but don't push the slide back far enough on my 92FS to fully eject the spent casing.
The same reload rounds work well enough on my LC9, which is smaller and lighter, obviously.

[Grasshopperglock]

There are few fail to fire rounds, in my experience there.
The ones that fail to eject do fire, but don't push the slide back far enough on my 92FS to fully eject the spent casing.
The same reload rounds work well enough on my LC9, which is smaller and lighter, obviously.

Look here,

https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta-92/recoil-spring.html


Take notice of the poundage between recoil springs (Wilson Combat). Available from 16 pounds down to a 11.5#. To run those light loads takes the corresponding recoil spring. As to which one to use. That's on you and these gun range loads. Trial and error until it'll cycle like a sewing machine.

The spring that's in it. Will run defensive loads and NATO. Plinking it won't.

[mac]

Look here,

https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta-92/recoil-spring.html


Take notice of the poundage between recoil springs (Wilson Combat). Available from 16 pounds down to a 11.5#. To run those light loads takes the corresponding recoil spring. As to which one to use. That's on you and these gun range loads. Trial and error until it'll cycle like a sewing machine.

The spring that's in it. Will run defensive loads and NATO. Plinking it won't.



You understand, of course, that the recoil spring has absolutely nothing to do with recoil or how far back the receiver goes....mac

[Grasshopperglock]

You understand, of course, that the recoil spring has absolutely nothing to do with recoil or how far back the receiver goes....mac

The slide determines how fall back the slide moves. As for recoil. The only thing that effects it is either more weight to the gun or a lighter powder load. Plus...

The job of the recoil spring is to allow the slide to fully cycle relative to the powder load. Too light of spring and the speed of the weight of mass that is the slide will have an effect on the feeling that's known as recoil.

There's a balance point. Able to cycle light loads. The slide speed is in check.

..

[Grasshopperglock]

That's why you choose the heaviest spring that'll cycle the given powder load. It'll function below that weight of spring but it'll wear the gun out. Practically beating it to ####.

That's also why everything comes with a more then heavy enough recoil spring.

[Mestral]

There are few fail to fire rounds, in my experience there.
The ones that fail to eject do fire, but don't push the slide back far enough on my 92FS to fully eject the spent casing.
The same reload rounds work well enough on my LC9, which is smaller and lighter, obviously.
Ahhh, my mistake.

Thanks for correcting me.

[fchafey]

I would want to know who reloaded that ammo. 2% fail to fire is unacceptable, let alone 20%. What does that range do with Fail to Fire ammo?


How fast is "pretty quick? 7 minutes?
I could see how too fast would be a problem, as the powder might not have time to drop into the case.

I can do 200 rounds in about 20 minutes. Anything faster and I jeopardize the quality. I get reloader ADD....

[Mestral]

I can do 200 rounds in about 20 minutes. Anything faster and I jeopardize the quality. I get reloader ADD....OK, cool.
I don't do reloading, as I have the philosophy that one should either DO reloading, or NOT do reloading.
I don't have the time or inclination to do an obsessively perfect job, so I do NOT do reloading.

(I have the same philosophy with canning. Either of these things, done less than perfectly, can kill people.)

Part of your reloading setup is called "Progressive" so I was picturing a system that, once you set it up, would be somewhat automatic, but I had no idea how fast things like that are. I just looked at a video of its operation, and there is a bit more manual operation that I first imagined. 200 in 20 minutes would be a pretty good clip.

[Grasshopperglock]

I have a Hornady 'Lock n' Load'. Progressive reloader.

I've reloaded since my teens. I've had rounds not get a powder charge. Bullet(s) stuck in the barrel. Pop no kick. Which is easy to check. Just weigh the rounds. Either one by one or in lots. If one 50 round lot doesn't weigh the same as the others. Weigh each one until you find the light one. If a bullet gets stuck. Hammer it out using a cleaning rod.

I also have a couple of single presses.

If you want a machine that'll pump rounds out as fast as you pull the lever. 'Dillon'. Industrial grade ammo reloader. Also expensive. Something you don't need unless you're shooting hundreds of rounds a week....or a day.


As for being safe. Most definitely. It's rather easy. But if you style your hair with gorilla glue. Buy your ammo instead of reloading. I've never ever heard or seen someone get hurt from reloading. The biggest danger is primer going off as it's seated in the case. But that's also rather rare.


There's 10 pounds of smokeless powder in the closet. 4000 small rifle primers. 5000 bullets and the cases to make them.

You can really get into reloading as a hobby and you can get seriously good doing it. Hand loads that make factory look like a joke.

[mac]

I would want to know who reloaded that ammo. 2% fail to fire is unacceptable, let alone 20%. What does that range do with Fail to Fire ammo?

that many fail to fires sounds more like a primer problem than anything else to me. it's happened to me a couple of times........mac

[Mestral]

that many fail to fires sounds more like a primer problem than anything else to me. it's happened to me a couple of times........macNaw, it was a "paying attention to what was actually said" problem.
I didn't read carefully.
He didn't say they didn't fire.
He said they didn't eject.
The loads didn't have enough powder to properly eject.

[Night Owl]

The biggest problem with accuracy is the user of the weapon.

[Mestral]

The biggest problem with accuracy is the user of the weapon.
That is the case with me, at least nowadays it is.

When I was in the AF, I shot expert, almost every time I went to an AF range.
When I went to an Army range, I got a wake up call.

It was one of those with the automatic pop up targets, rather than the paper targets I was used to, and I found that, while I didn't have much trouble hitting a target, I was too slow at acquiring the next target. I lost a lot of points because the target would drop before I could get the shot.

These days, my eyes are not so good, and my hands shake a bit. I joke about "hitting the broad side of a barn from the inside," but the reality is I am just good enough to pass the proficiency test for Texas CCW. Not sure about rifle, as my right eye is damaged. I need to get a mount so I can put a red dot scope where I can use my left eye to aim.

[Ludwig]

... Not sure about rifle, as my right eye is damaged. I need to get a mount so I can put a red dot scope where I can use my left eye to aim.My right eye is shot also. I have trained myself to be a left-handed shooter. That was easier for me since I was born left handed and was so until the sainted nuns retrained me so I would not be a worker for the evil one. Now I'm right handed but the hemispheres in my brain are still transposed and that has led to some real problems at times.

[mac]

Naw, it was a "paying attention to what was actually said" problem.
I didn't read carefully.
He didn't say they didn't fire.
He said they didn't eject.
The loads didn't have enough powder to properly eject.

i think you mean "extract" and not "eject"....but what the hay.....mac

[kantwin]

i think you mean "extract" and not "eject"....but what the hay.....mac

I think you think wrong.
I was the one that posted the original statement in post #8

some range reload 9mm that every 5th round or so won't fully eject due to low load of powder.
The spent casing is extracted from the chamber.
The spent casing is not fully ejected from the weapon.
The slide moves forward and is stopped by the partially ejected casing.

[Mestral]

I think you think wrong.
I was the one that posted the original statement in post #8

The spent casing is extracted from the chamber.
The spent casing is not fully ejected from the weapon.
The slide moves forward and is stopped by the partially ejected casing.
Some pistols will stop with the empty casing sticking out of the ejection port, an effect a lot of hand gunners call a "stove pipe"

A bit of twisted humor, M230 (replaced the M-60) crews call something different "stovepipe."
The M230 has a bad habit of the extractor tearing the backplate off the expended round, and feeding the next round into the chamber, ramming it into the remains of the spent cartridge. Once you are able to extract it, the two shell combo looks like a joint in a stovepipe.

[mac]

I think you think wrong.
I was the one that posted the original statement in post #8

The spent casing is extracted from the chamber.
The spent casing is not fully ejected from the weapon.
The slide moves forward and is stopped by the partially ejected casing.

sorry, but powder and recoil have absolutely nothing what so ever to do with ejection. Hells bells, you can even eject manually with no powder or recoil....a bolt action ejects, a single shot ejects, a lever action ejects....mac

[kantwin]

sorry, but powder and recoil have absolutely nothing what so ever to do with ejection. Hells bells, you can even eject manually with no powder or recoil....a bolt action ejects, a single shot ejects, a lever action ejects....mac
If powder and recoil have absolutely nothing to do with ejection, I'd be interested in hearing your theory on how a semi-automatic pistol performs the complete firing cycle, then.

[Grasshopperglock]

If powder and recoil have absolutely nothing to do with ejection, I'd be interested in hearing your theory on how a semi-automatic pistol performs the complete firing cycle, then.

He's doing word play between ejection(the process of removing the spent case from the action). And extraction (removing the spent case out of battery; extraction from the chamber)

[kantwin]

A bit of twisted humor, M230 (replaced the M-60) crews call something different "stovepipe."
The M230 is a 30mm chain gun, found on the Apache helicopter.
The M240B is a crew served weapon that replaced the M60.

[sojourner truth]

I am used to the terms failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to extract, and failure to eject. I suspect that in order for a round of ammunition to extract, it has to fully cycle to the point that the extraction mechanism grabs on to it and moves rearward to do the job. If that cycle is not sufficient to clear the spent cartridge, you get a failure to eject. If the extractor fails to let go of the spent cartridge, it will "stovepipe" . The entire firing sequence becomes a science all of its own when taken in series of events that need to happen.

I have had all sequences of the firing sequence fail on me at one time or another. The only way I ever prevented it was to go with a revolver, which eliminates the whole ejection and extraction sequence being done automatically. And when reloading ammo, I used to reload my own until I discovered how absolutely terrible at it I am. I used to reload my own .357 Magnum ammo, and got a rude awakening when I actually went to the range and attempted to fire it. I used too little powder and the bullet would fall out of the end of the barrel and plop onto the ground. Not good. I discovered that in translating the amount of powder to use in the reload, My conversion of grains to grams to Averdrupois and back again was not very accurate. It took a couple of West Point Lieutenants to explain to me what the French equivalent to grains and grams was in order to get me to give up future reloading attempts. It was simply easier for me to buy the ammo from the rod and gun club.:))

[Grasshopperglock]

Have you ever seen a titanium nitride coated, stainless steel HK USP 40S&W? Ever wonder what a German Texan would do with a no longer imported Stainless USP?




Well, now you have. Hand polished and then coated. The coating place was in California. It was mailed. The slide was. The receiver stayed with me.


9191

[Mestral]

The M230 is a 30mm chain gun, found on the Apache helicopter.
The M240B is a crew served weapon that replaced the M60.
OOps. Thanks.

[Night Owl]

Have you ever seen a titanium nitride coated, stainless steel HK USP 40S&W? Ever wonder what a German Texan would do with a no longer imported Stainless USP?




Well, now you have. Hand polished and then coated. The coating place was in California. It was mailed. The slide was. The receiver stayed with me.


http://www.centextalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=9191&stc=1
Looks ugly. Why would any sane person do this? Status maybe.

[Grasshopperglock]

Looks ugly. Why would any sane person do this? Status maybe.

Influence from the examples at the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco. It's gotta have bling. From engraving to carved bull heads with ruby eyes.

Imagine it in a shoulder holster. Late 1800's style.