Basic Home Defense/Newby To Guns

[Wolfdawg]

A friend asked me today about guns and the current state of society. His major question was defending his family and home, however he has had "some" firearm experience, but not much in the last decade. I recommended the basic home defense shotgun (12 gauge Remington or Mossberg). I have had more of these "recommendation" experiences lately due to current local and national issues. What are your recommendations in this type of situation?

[Night Owl]

I agree. Ammo should be OO buckshot. No slugs.

[Shotgun Jeremy]

12 GA is always a good choice. Hell, 20 GA isn't even a bad choice.

I usually grab my pistol when I'm going to check things out just due to it being more compact and me having more ammo. But ain't nothing wrong with a good ol shotgun. I've grabbed that a few times as well.

[mac]

A friend asked me today about guns and the current state of society. His major question was defending his family and home, however he has had "some" firearm experience, but not much in the last decade. I recommended the basic home defense shotgun (12 gauge Remington or Mossberg). I have had more of these "recommendation" experiences lately due to current local and national issues. What are your recommendations in this type of situation?

pistol (revolver), 1st round shot, if that don't change his mind and change it quick, it's katy bar the door......mac

[Dagobert II]

I can't really fault a shotgun. The shorter the barrel the better. That makes it easier to handle in the confines of a structure. Consider a bullpup design.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGhyH2kb1hM

[fchafey]

3 Boxers and an attack Chihuahua, plus a 20 gauge pump, 00 Buck, Slug, 00 Buck, Slug, 00 Buck, Slug, wife (former Soldier) lying back up w/FN 5.7 20 rounds in, 20 rounds awaiting. Would call in CAS if needed. Armegeddon Baby if you wanna break in!

[Mestral]

Can't disagree with any of the above posts, but have to point out the shotgun, while a great defensive weapon does have its weaknesses in house clearing. In defensive schools (like FrontSight) the bad guy gets his hand on the barrel over 50% of the time. If you are not going to simply back off into a corner and wait, a handgun works better.

That said, a handgun requires a great deal more training (not to say a shotgun requires zero training, that would be false) and requires ongoing training. Especially if you are using an automatic. A revolver, you can take to the range once, and thereafter, do all your training "dry fire" style (I still recommend monthly handling and dry fire), and maybe be ok. A shot gun, same, take it to the range at least once. With an automatic, you need to take it to the range at least a couple times a year. And these are the absolute minimum training levels.

All of my recommendations above assume all he want is the very minimum in home defense, against a typical home invader/robber.

[soldier boy]

Let us remember gun control! No, not that one. Back in the day, we called it the eight steady hold factors. The intent is to hit what you intend to hit.

[Mestral]

the eight steady hold factorsI have tried, unsuccessfully, to find reference to that, in any shooting manual.
Would appreciate pointers.

[CenTexDave]

In a confrontation in your house you aren't going to have time to remember the 8 steady hold factors. It's gonna be point and shoot. Note I didn't say aim. For that reason, I recommend a very short barreled, pump shotgun, and if you have to saw off the barrel. If you have kids, make it a .410 loaded with 00. It won't penetrate sheetrock and spray the next room, but will do a job on the intruder.

[CenTexDave]

I have tried, unsuccessfully, to find reference to that, in any shooting manual.
Would appreciate pointers.

It's an army thing - basic rifle marksmanship. And I think it was changed to 7 steady hold factors.

[mac]

Let us remember gun control! No, not that one. Back in the day, we called it the eight steady hold factors. The intent is to hit what you intend to hit.

8 steady hold factors for home defense? you CAN'T be serious!.......

center of mass and let 'er rip!....

of course, if it's the "no knock" team you might be in a world of hurt....but you know what they say about being tried by 12 as opposed to carried by 8........mac

[Mestral]

In a confrontation in your house you aren't going to have time to remember the 8 steady hold factors. It's gonna be point and shoot. Note I didn't say aim. For that reason, I recommend a very short barreled, pump shotgun, and if you have to saw off the barrel. If you have kids, make it a .410 loaded with 00. It won't penetrate sheetrock and spray the next room, but will do a job on the intruder.Personally (mathematically, actually) I prefer #4 buck. The principle is the same, just that my calculations are that #4 buck causes more bleeding. It will penetrate sheetrock, though. But buck shot looses a lot of energy doing so, and is less likely to kill anyone on the other side. Note, I said less likely. If you are going to go past just the very very basics, it is important to understand your lanes of fire in your home (basically, where not to shoot). At the very very basic level, I say get close to floor level, so that any overshoot will be at ceiling level by the time it gets to the next room.

[Mestral]

8 steady hold factors for home defense? you CAN'T be serious!.......
center of mass and let 'er rip!....
...
....macYeah Dave already pointed that out.


It's an army thing - basic rifle marksmanship. And I think it was changed to 7 steady hold factors.OK, I'll just look again, for "steady hold factors." I think I was searching for "stable stance" or something.

-----

There is a whole science of Point Shooting with handguns.
In fact about three different schools of it.
But again, that requires training.
I use an air soft pistol for "point shooting" training.

[Shotgun Jeremy]

If you absolutely know that someone is in your house, I recommend NOT clearing it. If you go clearing it, you don't know how many you're up against, where they are exactly, or what they're armed with. It could literally be 4 armed vs you. You'll simply have the tactical disadvantage big time in that situation.

Instead, you're gonna want to find a good defensive position, hunker down, train your gun on the door, and call the cops. Then while you're watching your door, the cops can come on along and enter the house from behind them. If you're going to use a taclight in this situation, then you might as well get a little extra advantage with that as well. Put the tac-light on a dresser and train it at the door. Then sit off at an angle so when they come in the room, their attention will be on the tac-light and you'll have an extra jump on them. One thing people don't think about is a gun in a house is LOUD. If you think you have the time, it may be worth it to go ahead and put in some ear plugs so the noise doesn't affect you as much. I've always worn ear plugs when shooting, but one day I ran through a mag of .45 while outdoors just to see what it would be like and maybe adjust my ears to shooting with no plugs. The concussion I got from that affected my hearing for a week after I did that. That was me shooing outdoors with no plugs. I would hate to see what shooting indoors with no ear plugs would do to you.

[CenTexDave]

Cigarette filters work good for ear plugs. Used to use them all the time when I forgot my earplugs and we were at the range.
Good advice about hunkering down in a defensive position. But all this is based on having a time factor to do it all. Most houses around here are one story and not that big. If two guys kick in your door you'll be lucky to have enough time to just grab a weapon. A little prior planning would help. For instance, I spend most of my time in the room where this computer is located. I call it "my office" - computer, my desk and files and large TV. I also keep loaded .40 cal on the computer desk. The front door is about 15 feet behind me down a small hallway. If I hear it come crashing down I will be ready. But I realize not everyone can be like this, especially if you have young kids at home. I live alone, so I don't have that to worry about.

[sojourner truth]

Or you can just use a rifle like mine with a 30 round mag that can put out all 30 rounds faster than you can... say Dixie..

Oh, and plenty of spare mags on the dresser helps.

I usually keep my 22LR m-4 style rifle under the bed and a 45 and a 380 in the drawer.

Also keep a 380 next to my easy chair in the TV room, as the home invasion thing seems to have become fairly popular and we just don't have time to ask the bad guys to wait a sec while we go to the bedroom to get firepower.

[Ludwig]

... as the home invasion thing seems to have become fairly popular and we just don't have time to ask the bad guys to wait a sec while we go to the bedroom to get firepower.

I keep my .38 S&W on my hip during the waking hours, especially while at home. The shotgun and a 9mm are in the bedroom. I have a nice toy, a 357 Mag. Rifle in my "office". Of course all these launchers are fully primed and loaded.

[CenTexDave]

So I guess anyone reading this topic will realize they won't want to mess with the ones who are posting. Hit the house up the street. :)

[Night Owl]

All guns in my home are loaded. There will never be anyone shot here with an unloaded gun. I personally unload them if someone wants to look at them. Then I know they are unloaded.

[mac]

So I guess anyone reading this topic will realize they won't want to mess with the ones who are posting. Hit the house up the street. :)

you mean you don't have a sign by your door telling the intruder which neighbor is unarmed?

anyone coming into my "castle" knows that the Lord is armed....unless he's absolutely blind staggering drunk......mac

[Shotgun Jeremy]

I have the luxury of choosing between a bolt action, semi auto rifle, semi auto pistol, and pump shotgun. My #1 go to gun for hunkering down will always be my shotgun. My gun for checking things out is my pistol. I'm more likely to hit a critical vein/organ with buckshot and it's easier to maneuver with my pistol. I would only use my semi-auto rifle outdoors or if I run out with my shotgun. If I run out with my shotgun and still need to shoot...ok, it's Windham time.

I do have a child and now a gf to worry about as well. Luckily the gf can shoot and has had to shoot someone in the past so I can use her to help me. I have a plan to get to my son's room and retrieve him. It should be easy since he's very close.

Now-this is all if I'm in my bed and I hear the door or a window crash in. If I'm just in the house well...I carry in the house and it will just be a very fluid event.

[sojourner truth]

Just put a not in the door informing whomever may read it that "I am home and armed 5 days a week...Your problem is figuring out which 5".

[kantwin]

Just put a not in the door informing whomever may read it that "I am home and armed 5 days a week...Your problem is figuring out which 5".
Sounds like the sign at the local junkyard when I was growing up. "We let the gigs loose in the yard 4 days a week. We won't say which days. "

[mac]

Sounds like the sign at the local junkyard when I was growing up. "We let the gigs loose in the yard 4 days a week. We won't say which days. "

or a sign on one of my fences, "If you can read this, you're in range".......mac

[sojourner truth]

Old saying in the Artillery.. When the enemy is in range, so are you.

[mac]

Old saying in the Artillery.. When the enemy is in range, so are you.

yeow, I've heard it said before....it was bad then and still is.....I mean, there's ranges and then there's ranges.......mac

[kantwin]

Sounds like the sign at the local junkyard when I was growing up. "We let the gigs loose in the yard 4 days a week. We won't say which days. "
Just realized the typo - "gigs" should have been DOGS... good grief that dang autocorrect on a smartphone that thinks it knows better than the not-so-smart-vision-losing-operator who didn't use his glasses when he typed that...

[Mestral]

Just realized the typo - "gigs" should have been DOGS... good grief that dang autocorrect on a smartphone that thinks it knows better than the not-so-smart-vision-losing-operator who didn't use his glasses when he typed that...Just one reason I hope to NEVER have one of those danged things.

[curmudgeon]

I've been thinking about this thread and have a question. I keep a 45 in the nightstand and a 380 in my easy chair. While i practice on the range and am proficient with both weapons, I'm an educator not a trained professional with a weapon. If an intruder breaks in during the night I should be able to get to a firearm easily enough. But seeing/aiming in the dark is a concern. What can I do to improve this?

[Mestral]

The best idea I can think of is a remote light switch, to shed light on him, but not on you.

At distances up to around 15ft, you might want to work on some point-shooting skills,
but you always have to balance that against knowing absolutely, who you are shooting.

A lot of people swear by gun lights, but unless you spend $100 on one, and then practice using it,
until it becomes second nature, it might be as much of a liability as an asset.

[CenTexDave]

A couple of things, IMO, you need to consider: are there any kids at home in rooms close by where a round penetrating the walls could harm them? If so, you need to have a good target if the need arises. I'd just leave a light on in the hallway. It would definitely illuminate the perp.

[sojourner truth]

I use a flashlight which sits on the nightstand... An old habit for when the power goes out... Nothing worse than losing power in the middle of the night and then having to do the "Toe stub Boogie" getting to a flashlight in the front room.

The other thing I automatically do before I grab my gun is to feel the side of the bed my wife sleeps on to make sure the noise I am hearing is not her going to the bathroom or something.

When I turn the flashlight on, I always hold it away from my body because it also tells a burglar exactly where you are too.

[Shotgun Jeremy]

A couple of things, IMO, you need to consider: are there any kids at home in rooms close by where a round penetrating the walls could harm them? If so, you need to have a good target if the need arises. I'd just leave a light on in the hallway. It would definitely illuminate the perp.

This is another strong benefit to using Buckshot. Yea, there's a bigger area of penetration but it doesn't penetrate as far.

[Night Owl]

Just realized the typo - "gigs" should have been DOGS... good grief that dang autocorrect on a smartphone that thinks it knows better than the not-so-smart-vision-losing-operator who didn't use his glasses when he typed that...
I thought you were talking about Aggies.:))

[IronErnin]

I have a question? What about using a large caliber bird shot? With that you should get a bigger dispersal pattern. Plus, would there be as big a danger of over penetration? What is going to hurt worse? 1 hole in you or a dozen?
In a previous thread I mentioned using dimes but was corrected. Instead of dimes, use dime sized disks cut into 1/4. You know the little punch outs on electrical boxes.

[sojourner truth]

Puts a whole new meaning on "popcorn ceiling".

[Shotgun Jeremy]

Your over penetration worries go down as your shot size goes down. However, so do your chances of good penetration of a body. There's a reason buckshot is used for home defense vs birdshot. You're more likely to take someone down on the first shot with buck shot and more likely to piss them off if it's bird shot. Not only is buck shot bigger, but it also uses more powder. This can be seen by looking at the necking of a birdshot shell vs a buckshot shell.

[mac]

Your over penetration worries go down as your shot size goes down. However, so do your chances of good penetration of a body. There's a reason buckshot is used for home defense vs birdshot. You're more likely to take someone down on the first shot with buck shot and more likely to piss them off if it's bird shot. Not only is buck shot bigger, but it also uses more powder. This can be seen by looking at the necking of a birdshot shell vs a buckshot shell.

Necking?.......I think you guys have lost me........mac

[IronErnin]

I was thinking in terms of using something about the size of .177 caliber shot. I wasn't aware that there is more difference between a bird round and a mammal round than the size of the shot.
I've never fired any shot guns, but I have reloaded maybe 3 shells. For a lad, the first one or two is kinda fun, but after that it grows rather tedious, quickly.

[mac]

I was thinking in terms of using something about the size of .177 caliber shot. I wasn't aware that there is more difference between a bird round and a mammal round than the size of the shot.
I've never fired any shot guns, but I have reloaded maybe 3 shells. For a lad, the first one or two is kinda fun, but after that it grows rather tedious, quickly.

Well.......the first thing you need to know is that shotgun shells no not have necks......

Actually, just go out and buy a box of high base 7 1/2....and when the time comes and you feel like it's a righteous shoot, just point and pull the trigger...end of problem...mac

[CenTexDave]

Necking?.......I think you guys have lost me........mac

Still thinking about your mare, I see. :))

[Night Owl]

I have a question? What about using a large caliber bird shot? With that you should get a bigger dispersal pattern. Plus, would there be as big a danger of over penetration? What is going to hurt worse? 1 hole in you or a dozen?
In a previous thread I mentioned using dimes but was corrected. Instead of dimes, use dime sized disks cut into 1/4. You know the little punch outs on electrical boxes.
Your thought process is wrong. When I am defending my home I don't want the dirtbag leaving and getting involved with the justice system. I want him to get up close and personal with the undertaker.

[Mestral]

I was thinking in terms of using something about the size of .177 caliber shot. I wasn't aware that there is more difference between a bird round and a mammal round than the size of the shot.
I've never fired any shot guns, but I have reloaded maybe 3 shells. For a lad, the first one or two is kinda fun, but after that it grows rather tedious, quickly.Shot size comes in three general categories.
The smallest is called birdshot, and the biggest is called buckshot.
In the middle are some things like B, BB, and BBB. (.177 is obviously BB)

As the shot size drops, two things happen. One is you get more shot in a load, and the other is you get deeper penetration. You do not get a wider dispersal. Conversely, with 00 or 000 buck the dispersal at medium ranges (25 to 60 yards) becomes wide enough several of the pellets may miss on either side. In those distances #4 Buck has a slight advantage. In close, there isn't much difference. As the shot sized drops out of the buckshot range into B and BB size, effectiveness on humans begins to diminish. Not on normal people, but on drug addicts that may not feel pain.

Shot shells can come with a variety of powder charges, and also come in various lengths, with 2-3/4 and 3inch shells being the most popular. I keep and give 2-3/4 inch #4 buckshot with standard powder charge for gifts. (Like Christmas) That is because they will shoot in more shotguns than any other size. (and of course, I am talking only about 12 ga, other sizes would be a separate issue, although I would still go with #4 buck).

[IronErnin]

There is nothing wrong with my thought process. I was trying to think about the safety of the innocent and uninvolved. My post was a seeking of knowledge.
I'll stick with my Fitzowen. The perp may leave the premises, but he won't get far. Plus, the racket won't disturb the neighbors until the police show up. You gut shoot someone with an arrow, no one is getting it out without scrambling the person's bowels.

[CenTexDave]

Your home defense is a bow and arrow? Lookie here, Robin Hood, that would be about useless inside a house. A small crossbow might work, but don't miss with the first bolt or you'll never get off another one.

[IronErnin]

Iolo Fitzowen makes some of the finest crossbows to be had, anywhere.

[Ludwig]

Iolo Fitzowen makes some of the finest crossbows to be had, anywhere.

No one argues that. However, unless he has provided you with a semi-auto or revolver cross-bow, you have only one shot and at the range at which you would engage a home intruder the bolt would pass through. Depending on the part(s) hit, the perp may bleed out but he could put you into the same situation before he does so. I prefer to hit the perp with something that will reverse his direction and change his attack to a retreat ASAP, followed by expiration of his miserable life.

[Mestral]

If IE doesn't have bolts that will not pass through at home defense ranges, I will look into making him some.
Of course, that means a really broad, broad head. With some nice serrations.

[mac]

Shot size comes in three general categories.
The smallest is called birdshot, and the biggest is called buckshot.
In the middle are some things like B, BB, and BBB. (.177 is obviously BB)

As the shot size drops, two things happen. One is you get more shot in a load, and the other is you get deeper penetration. You do not get a wider dispersal. Conversely, with 00 or 000 buck the dispersal at medium ranges (25 to 60 yards) becomes wide enough several of the pellets may miss on either side. In those distances #4 Buck has a slight advantage. In close, there isn't much difference. As the shot sized drops out of the buckshot range into B and BB size, effectiveness on humans begins to diminish. Not on normal people, but on drug addicts that may not feel pain.

Shot shells can come with a variety of powder charges, and also come in various lengths, with 2-3/4 and 3inch shells being the most popular. I keep and give 2-3/4 inch #4 buckshot with standard powder charge for gifts. (Like Christmas) That is because they will shoot in more shotguns than any other size. (and of course, I am talking only about 12 ga, other sizes would be a separate issue, although I would still go with #4 buck).

not sure you mean "shot shells". shot shells come from generally 2s (not buck) through 8....maybe a few 9s (skeet) or 10s or dust......but buck is a whole different category........not sure what all this business about "penetration" is all about either. I have never shot a duck, pheasant or quail where the shot penetrated a vital organ. it's the shock that kills a bird, not the "penetration" of a vital organ....slugs and buck, however do penetrate vital organs......

shot or buck shells might not be a good gift, mestral, unless you know what choke the guy has........mac

[mac]

If IE doesn't have bolts that will not pass through at home defense ranges, I will look into making him some.
Of course, that means a really broad, broad head. With some nice serrations.

hell, by the time you get that sucker cranked up and loaded, it'd be too late anyway......I mean, nobody has an already drawn and loaded cross bow layin' around......mac

[Ludwig]

From what they told us in TDCJ, 00 Buck is the equivalent of eight .38 cal. projos and at home defense range that equates to offloading two .28 S&W and hitting with most of the joes. Sounds pretty good to me.

[mac]

From what they told us in TDCJ, 00 Buck is the equivalent of eight .38 cal. projos and at home defense range that equates to offloading two .28 S&W and hitting with most of the joes. Sounds pretty good to me.

that's true. buck will definitely act similar to bullets.....a handful of bullets, but .not nearly with the velocity and ballistics. your choke, anywhere from xtra full to cylinder has a role too, but still it'll definitely lay you low.......mac

[Rick]

One thing people don't think about is a gun in a house is LOUD. If you think you have the time, it may be worth it to go ahead and put in some ear plugs so the noise doesn't affect you as much. I've always worn ear plugs when shooting, but one day I ran through a mag of .45 while outdoors just to see what it would be like and maybe adjust my ears to shooting with no plugs. The concussion I got from that affected my hearing for a week after I did that. That was me shooing outdoors with no plugs. I would hate to see what shooting indoors with no ear plugs would do to you.

With our alarm system, it is doubtful that one would even hear the gunshot. I like the idea of racking a pump shotgun as a deterrent , but if the alarm is blaring, the dirty, maggot infested, criminal scumbag won't even hear it.

[CenTexDave]

A few claymores with trip wires around your property might work good too. :)

[Mestral]

A few claymores with trip wires around your property might work good too. :)Hey, don't be giving away my secrets. I ain't wearing this aluminum foil hat for nutting.

But back to buckshot. In a 12 ga. "00 buck" is 8 or 9 pellets of 32 cal size, but slightly on the light side of hand gun rounds.
Moving to #4 buck reduces the size of the pellets to just under 22 cal size, and again on the light side of a 22 short.

If we was defending our home from pigeons, #6 birdshot would work fine.
I do keep some snakeshot (birdshot size pellets in a handgun round) around the house,
just in case I corner a rattler where I can't get a clean kill with a shovel.

[mac]

Hey, don't be giving away my secrets. I ain't wearing this aluminum foil hat for nutting.

But back to buckshot. In a 12 ga. "00 buck" is 8 or 9 pellets of 32 cal size, but slightly on the light side of hand gun rounds.
Moving to #4 buck reduces the size of the pellets to just under 22 cal size, and again on the light side of a 22 short.

If we was defending our home from pigeons, #6 birdshot would work fine.
I do keep some snakeshot (birdshot size pellets in a handgun round) around the house,
just in case I corner a rattler where I can't get a clean kill with a shovel.

#6 is way too much shot for a pigeon......8s or even skeet (9) would be a lot more deadly....make sure you have the right choke. wouldn't want to be usin' full or even modified on 'em......mac (lots and lots of pigeon sized holes in a #6 pattern.....mac

[IronErnin]

If IE doesn't have bolts that will not pass through at home defense ranges, I will look into making him some.
Of course, that means a really broad, broad head. With some nice serrations.

Thanks for the offer, Mestral, but not necessary. A 6" quarrel with a 2" broadhead with fletching is more than sufficient. At engagement ranges in the house, a hit to the chest would result in a target person being held in their tracks for a moment before dropping at the shooter's feet. Kind of like taking a kick to the chest. Ribs would be broken, lungs and heart likely penetrated, possibly spine severed. A hit to the face wouldn't be real pretty, either and would result in death. A face shot would be delivered to the area between the lower jaw and the nose and slightly upward from level.
Most modern manufacturers make auto cockers for their products.

[mac]

Thanks for the offer, Mestral, but not necessary. A 6" quarrel with a 2" broadhead with fletching is more than sufficient. At engagement ranges in the house, a hit to the chest would result in a target person being held in their tracks for a moment before dropping at the shooter's feet. Kind of like taking a kick to the chest. Ribs would be broken, lungs and heart likely penetrated, possibly spine severed. A hit to the face wouldn't be real pretty, either and would result in death. A face shot would be delivered to the area between the lower jaw and the nose and slightly upward from level.
Most modern manufacturers make auto cockers for their products.

I just don't believe the perp will wait around doing nothing while you crank that sucker up and get everything layed in and ready to release it........mac

[Mestral]

I just don't believe the perp will wait around doing nothing while you crank that sucker up and get everything layed in and ready to release it........macKnowing what I do about the state of technology and IE, I would say the perp will have a lot less "waiting around" than what you imagine. I do think IE overestimates the quickness of the kill, and while a crossbow isn't equal to a firearm in close quarter combat, it can be effective enough. And will have to do, since it is what he has.

[IronErnin]

Imagine taking one of Norris' kicks in the chest, full force. That is what you'd feel, if you took a hit in the chest.
Now, imagine taking one to the face. It would be about as quick(According to Mr Fitzowen).
An auto cocker works pretty quickly. A hit in the face or the chest might not kill, instantly but at 10' the target would have to stand up, again.
Fitzowen uses steel wire rope (cable) for bowstrings and spring steel prods on his bows.
I also have a couple swords, but I ain't what I used to be.

[mac]

Imagine taking one of Norris' kicks in the chest, full force. That is what you'd feel, if you took a hit in the chest.
Now, imagine taking one to the face. It would be about as quick(According to Mr Fitzowen).
An auto cocker works pretty quickly. A hit in the face or the chest might not kill, instantly but at 10' the target would have to stand up, again.
Fitzowen uses steel wire rope (cable) for bowstrings and spring steel prods on his bows.
I also have a couple swords, but I ain't what I used to be.

what's the "draw" on your cross bow.....and how long does it take you to set her up ready to release the bolt?.....sorry, Iron, you don't have that much time. you and your's are dead......or worse......mac

[Mestral]

what's the "draw" on your cross bow.....and how long does it take you to set her up ready to release the bolt?.....sorry, Iron, you don't have that much time. you and your's are dead......or worse......macWell we have drifted a tad off topic.
This is supposed to be about guns.

Back on that subject, I want to note that most things in firearms are trade offs. A longer barrel will provide better aiming (not to important in close quarters) but also provides more muzzle velocity (always important), but slows the process of bringing the gun to target. This isn't usually a problem until you get more than about 5 inches of barrel length.

A laser aiming device is very helpful in putting the round on target, but good ones are fairly expensive.

And don't forget to budget for ammo, both for the range, and defensive ammo.

[mac]

Well we have drifted a tad off topic.
This is supposed to be about guns.

Back on that subject, I want to note that most things in firearms are trade offs. A longer barrel will provide better aiming (not to important in close quarters) but also provides more muzzle velocity (always important), but slows the process of bringing the gun to target. This isn't usually a problem until you get more than about 5 inches of barrel length.

A laser aiming device is very helpful in putting the round on target, but good ones are fairly expensive.

And don't forget to budget for ammo, both for the range, and defensive ammo.

actually, barrel length has very very little to do with velocity. I checked it out once with a chronograph and the difference is negligible. a carbine shoots dammed near as fast a a rifle.....although there IS a small, very small difference....mac

Iron: i'd still like to know what the draw is on your cross bow.....mac (if you don't mind)

[sojourner truth]

SHoot.. I have a closet full of arrows and 2 pretty decent bows. But those are for the end times after the ammo runs out.

And I can't envision a scenario where I would run out of ammo.

The only advantage a bow and arrow have is silence... And the victim will have to cooperate when he sees a 2 foot long shaft protruding from his heart.

[Mestral]

actually, barrel length has very very little to do with velocity. I checked it out once with a chronograph and the difference is negligible. a carbine shoots dammed near as fast a a rifle.....although there IS a small, very small difference....mac
...Most noticeable for shorter barrel lengths.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html
4868

[mac]

Most noticeable for shorter barrel lengths.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html


4868

looks 'bout right......for pistols, but as I stated, I was talkin' shoulder weapons.....carbines, rifles and the like......for example, the 700 compared to a 600 or 660......in .243 or 6mm.......mac

[Mestral]

looks 'bout right......for pistols, but as I stated, I was talkin' shoulder weapons.....carbines, rifles and the like......for example, the 700 compared to a 600 or 660......in .243 or 6mm.......macI understood that, but it was confusing to some of those new to firearms, and that is who I write for.

[HistoryTeacher]

I've been thinking about this thread and have a question. I keep a 45 in the nightstand and a 380 in my easy chair. While i practice on the range and am proficient with both weapons, I'm an educator not a trained professional with a weapon. If an intruder breaks in during the night I should be able to get to a firearm easily enough. But seeing/aiming in the dark is a concern. What can I do to improve this?

Cheap motion lights plugged into the wall. I hadn't thought to use these for intruders. I use them in the halls next to the bathroom when company stays for a while.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Good-Choice-LED-Egg-Shaped-Motion-Sensor-Night-Light/17279128

[Mestral]

Cheap motion lights plugged into the wall. I hadn't thought to use these for intruders. I use them in the halls next to the bathroom when company stays for a while.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Good-Choice-LED-Egg-Shaped-Motion-Sensor-Night-Light/17279128I don't have an outlet in the right place for this, but it would be great for someone who does.

[mac]

I don't have an outlet in the right place for this, but it would be great for someone who does.

I have cheapos (batteries) that I have one each inside from the front stoop, inside from the back porch, the front hallway and the bedroom hallway. truth be told anyone who comes into the bedroom hall way at night is the most perfect target a guy could hope for.....if he comes in the front hallway he presents me another chance to excel. of course if he no knocks off the front stoop or back porch, it may take a little more shoot and move on my part........mac

[Mestral]

I would love to find some motion activated, battery powered LED lights.
Haven't seen any for a little while.
Was thinking about rigging one of those motion detectors used in Halloween gags, and singing fish.

[Mestral]

Silly me, all I had to do was search for: motion activated battery powered LED light

http://www.amazon.com/Sylvania-72178-Activated-Battery-Powered/dp/B001LJNS8U

$12.50 each
Osram Sylvania No. 72178 SylWHT motion-activating light
1 bright white LED, on/off/auto switch, on for 12 seconds when motion activated
Head rotates up and down and side to side, 13-feet and 130-degree detection range
Comes with three AAA batteries, indoor and outdoor use
Dimensions: 4.5 inches tall by 2.5 inches wide by 2 inches deep

And there are other similar ones, for both indoor and outdoor.

[mac]

Silly me, all I had to do was search for: motion activated battery powered LED light

http://www.amazon.com/Sylvania-72178-Activated-Battery-Powered/dp/B001LJNS8U


And there are other similar ones, for both indoor and outdoor.

you'll be surprised at how bright that sucker is.....especially if you're looking at it when it comes on.......mac

[Mestral]

you'll be surprised at how bright that sucker is.....especially if you're looking at it when it comes on.......macIf you have one of the recent ones of that model, I would expect it to be blinding bright. Has a Luxeon LED (I can tell by looking at the picture). Earlier models had three "bright white" LED's according Q&A on the web page. The Luxeon LED is similar to a flashlight I used to carry at work, to light up things a hundred feet away.

Well, anyway, I decided to go with a different model. I want enough light to identify, in case it is someone I don't want shot. And maybe startle, but blinding isn't really necessary, at this point.

[Night Owl]

If you have one of the recent ones of that model, I would expect it to be blinding bright. Has a Luxeon LED (I can tell by looking at the picture). Earlier models had three "bright white" LED's according Q&A on the web page. The Luxeon LED is similar to a flashlight I used to carry at work, to light up things a hundred feet away.

Well, anyway, I decided to go with a different model. I want enough light to identify, in case it is someone I don't want shot. And maybe startle, but blinding isn't really necessary, at this point.
Blinding would be ideal. The thief wouldn't be able to see for a few seconds and that would give IE time for a second bolt.:)

[Mestral]

Blinding would be ideal. The thief wouldn't be able to see for a few seconds and that would give IE time for a second bolt.:)I didn't say I wouldn't employ a blinding light, just that it wouldn't be at that point. I employ security in layers.

[IronErnin]

I wouldn't need a second shot, I'd just run you over.

[Dagobert II]

Get one of these shotguns and you'll be taking a second and maybe a third shot whether you need to or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuBPL81DbLU

[Mestral]

...

That said, a handgun requires a great deal more training (not to say a shotgun requires zero training, that would be false) and requires ongoing training. Especially if you are using an automatic. A revolver, you can take to the range once, and thereafter, do all your training "dry fire" style (I still recommend monthly handling and dry fire), and maybe be ok. A shot gun, same, take it to the range at least once. With an automatic, you need to take it to the range at least a couple times a year. And these are the absolute minimum training levels.

All of my recommendations above assume all he want is the very minimum in home defense, against a typical home invader/robber.As I said above. The absolute minimum in training is dry training once a month and on a range twice a year (a little less for a shotgun or revolver).

Similar viewpoint here:
http://bearingarms.com/ferguson-failure-civility/?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl

“I think the first message is to remind all law enforcement that they are hired to serve and protect and if they’re going to sit back and watch looting, they’re not serving us; they’re not protecting us,” Pastor Robert White told the station.

A reporter from the station tweeted that police cars were seen driving past some of the stores being looted and did not respond.
How many times do we have to point out that the police have no responsibility to protect you. The Supreme Court has ruled on this repeatedly.


No one needs a gun… until they do.

Citizens around Ferguson, Missouri are learning that lesson. Many people who have never considered owning a firearm before are now rushing to area gun stores.


Guns and ammo are selling at a feverish pace in and around St. Louis as violent clashes continue between protesters and police in nearby Ferguson, Missouri.

“People are coming in with fear in their eyes and they’re saying they need something to protect their house,” said Steven King, owner of Metro Shooting Supplies, a gun shop in the St. Louis suburb of Bridgeton. “They’re scared to death.”

It’s too late. At this point, these panicked citizens can obtain a firearm, and may be able learn its basic features.

It’s too late for them to learn how to use a firearm competently, quickly, and under stress. They are now gambling their lives—and the lives of their families—that they’ll be able to hit aggressors with murder on their minds at distances measured in feet and inches in precious seconds, with no training.

[Mestral]

The proper application of gun control allows hitting your target, or multiple targets.

This is why I say practice is a necessity.


The video, which shows three men walking into the 9th Street SW gas station, was released at an 11 a.m. news conference.

Police say two of the suspects, identified as Antonio Garcia, 23, and Ronnie Lawson, 21, were shot and killed by a clerk at the location.

The shooting followed an attempted robbery and a scuffle with the clerk.

The clerk was shot in the hip and leg during the melee. His injuries are non-life-threatening. The gas station manager says the clerk is recovering well in the hospital.

...

The clerk has not been charged.

"Last night was probably the first night and the last night he wants to pull a gun on somebody," said Gary, a man who frequents the Marathon.

Gary said the clerk, named Lance, wore a gun on his hip for protection.

"I asked him if he'd ever shot it and he said no, he just uses it for target shooting."

That practice may have saved his life Monday night.

It is likely that nothing about the size of the gun is important here, other than it carried enough ammo to get him through the firefight.
What was important is that the gun was not overly powerful and therefore he could control it sufficiently to fire on target, repeatedly.

[CenTexDave]

I saw video of this. Was great. :)

[Mestral]

I saw video of this. Was great. :)
Too bad they don't have the footage of him actually shooting the perps.
(But youtube probably doesn't want "faces of death" videos)

[Night Owl]

Those same people don't have a problem selling video games where killing people with very graphic scenes is ok.

[CenTexDave]

I saw video of this. Was great. :)

It was the outdoor security cam. Only showed one getting hit and going down, and one running like hell. The other guy must have bought it inside the store.

[HistoryTeacher]

Hey, don't be giving away my secrets. I ain't wearing this aluminum foil hat for nutting.

But back to buckshot. In a 12 ga. "00 buck" is 8 or 9 pellets of 32 cal size, but slightly on the light side of hand gun rounds.
Moving to #4 buck reduces the size of the pellets to just under 22 cal size, and again on the light side of a 22 short.

If we was defending our home from pigeons, #6 birdshot would work fine.
I do keep some snakeshot (birdshot size pellets in a handgun round) around the house,
just in case I corner a rattler where I can't get a clean kill with a shovel.

I have a shovel specifically designated for those things...

[Mestral]

I have a shovel specifically designated for those things...I assume you are talking about rattlers. Or copperheads. I kill at least a couple of them every summer, but there is always one or two in a spot where I can't get the shovel into, and they get away. A rattler that gets away near Mother Neff is no big deal, but one that gets away in my back yard has his pick of the neighbors kids, and that doesn't sit well with me.

[HistoryTeacher]

Only one rattler so far. He bit the shovel, literally, when I pushed him back. He was easily divisible into fourths.

[CenTexDave]

Get a pet Road Runner. Rattlesnake is a delicacy for them. :)

[Mestral]

Sometimes you don't have to be the best shooter (although being well trained is always a plus) or have the biggest gun.
Sometimes rudimentary training and a middle weight gun are sufficient.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01/19/man-relives-bone-chilling-moment-when-a-neighbor-kicked-through-his-door-and-came-at-him-with-a-machete-it-was-like-the-shining/

“I just remember the look in his eye,” Cvengros told the Idaho State Journal. “It was like ‘The Shining.’”

The video — which Cvengros immediately turned over to police without having watched it — includes the sound of three shots fired at Thomas. He was hit by all three. Cvengros told the State Journal that Thomas went down only after the third shot; he’s heard moaning through the rest of the clip, which goes black shortly after the shots and then includes audio only.

“Seeing the video kind of brought it all back,” Cvengros told the paper. “But there’s not a doubt in my mind that I did the right thing.”

“I decided that it was my responsibility to protect myself and my girlfriend,” he told the State Journal.

“I chose a 9mm because it’s popular with police and the military,” Cvengros told the paper. “And I wanted something that wouldn’t be so big I couldn’t handle the recoil.”