concealed handgun classes

[Scarlett]

At no charge....


3181

[Rick]

Here's their website for more information.

http://bigironchl.com/

And his class schedule:
http://bigironchl.com/class_schedule

[ithoughtso]

Got mine thru BigIron. He did Ted Nugent also.

[Scarlett]

Hehe

[Night Owl]

Got mine thru BigIron. He did Ted Nugent also.

REALLY!:)):)):))

[Scarlett]

I'm glad I'm not the only one.....

[Grammar Rules]

Who did Ted Nugent?

[Scarlett]

Apparently the guy I'm going to the a class from! Hopefully he doesn't... Never mind.... Stopping now.....

[Scarlett]

Ok. I'm scheduled to go to class Monday. A friend of mine who teaches in Belton is going with me. And as I bonus my ex husband is so happy, he is buying me a handgun!

[bbh]

Ok. I'm scheduled to go to class Monday. A friend of mine who teaches in Belton is going with me. And as I bonus my ex husband is so happy, he is buying me a handgun!

Now THAT'S an amicable divorce!!!:))

[Scarlett]

We are good friends. It's better for the kids that way...

I feel like I'm starting a revolution... I am up to a group of six going to the CHL class on Monday!

[Scarlett]

Up to eight! This is going to be a fun New Year's Eve! If any other teachers want to go, my car is now officially full but we are meeting at my house at 0630!

[xzochye]

Up to eight! This is going to be a fun New Year's Eve! If any other teachers want to go, my car is now officially full but we are meeting at my house at 0630!

Lol, you're crazy! Sounds like you will be having a good time!

[siamcat]

Let us know how it goes. If KISD ever allows concealed carry by teachers kids might think twic about dissing the teacher:).

[Mestral]

Let us know how it goes. If KISD ever allows concealed carry by teachers kids might think twic about dissing the teacher:).I am still hoping the Governor will follow through and push to open doors to CCL holders.

[Imagine]

Struggling mightily with this issue, but allowing guns on campuses by people other than highly trained law enforcement officers is opening a door that scares me a little.

Panic reaction to the attacks on 9/11 resulted in massive violations of civil rights. I have to seriously wonder about the potential negative effect panic reaction following Sandy Hook might have in our schools.

I am not a gun control freak, not trying to "gut" the Second Amendment; I just don't know if this is a right or wise course to pursue.

[IronErnin]

The wisdom of the decision will depend upon those allowed to carry. Personally, I see it as a prudent measure to take in order to better protect those too young to protect themselves.

[engteach64]

Great, just what we need, more concealed hand guns. I have no issue with people owning guns, but is getting a gun and being able to conceal it really going to make you safer? You can't bring it to school, so protection at school isn't going to do anything.

Teachers leave purses, etc. in the classroom all the time, and students steal. Do you really think that a concealed weapon will never get stolen and used at a school? If your weapon is stolen, and used, don't you become liable to some extent for having it where it could be stolen? This concept worries me. Putting more guns out there isn't going to stop shootings, just make it so those of us without weapons get caught in the crossfire.

[kantwin]

Putting more guns out there isn't going to stop shootings

Do you have any statistical proof of that?

[Imagine]

Do you have any statistical proof of that?


http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-2012.pdf


Statistics from the American Journal of Public Health, DOI: 10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099
http://ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2008.14309

[mac]

what's the governor got to do with it?....mac


I am still hoping the Governor will follow through and push to open doors to CCL holders.

[mac]

please tell me a civil right or two that i lost as a result of the 9/11 attacks. the only lost civil right that i'm aware of is the right to live by those who were slaughtered......mac


Struggling mightily with this issue, but allowing guns on campuses by people other than highly trained law enforcement officers is opening a door that scares me a little.

Panic reaction to the attacks on 9/11 resulted in massive violations of civil rights. I have to seriously wonder about the potential negative effect panic reaction following Sandy Hook might have in our schools.

I am not a gun control freak, not trying to "gut" the Second Amendment; I just don't know if this is a right or wise course to pursue.

[Imagine]

please tell me a civil right or two that i lost as a result of the 9/11 attacks. the only lost civil right that i'm aware of is the right to live by those who were slaughtered......mac

I haven't personally felt the loss of a civil right, and maybe you haven't either. But under the Patriot Act many have, and the potential for more was possible.

http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-vs-const.html

[mac]

first of all, i would much rather get caught in the cross fire than in the line of fire. i only wish there had been some crossfire goin' on at newtown.

who says you can't bring your concealed handgun to school...other than you?

one ofthe things these folks will learn at their concealed carry class is to not leave your firearm laying around where it can be stolen. we do not have a right to leave weapons laying around.....we do have a right to bear or carry them......mac


Great, just what we need, more concealed hand guns. I have no issue with people owning guns, but is getting a gun and being able to conceal it really going to make you safer? You can't bring it to school, so protection at school isn't going to do anything.

Teachers leave purses, etc. in the classroom all the time, and students steal. Do you really think that a concealed weapon will never get stolen and used at a school? If your weapon is stolen, and used, don't you become liable to some extent for having it where it could be stolen? This concept worries me. Putting more guns out there isn't going to stop shootings, just make it so those of us without weapons get caught in the crossfire.

[Yve]

Great, just what we need, more concealed hand guns. I have no issue with people owning guns, but is getting a gun and being able to conceal it really going to make you safer? You can't bring it to school, so protection at school isn't going to do anything.

Teachers leave purses, etc. in the classroom all the time, and students steal. Do you really think that a concealed weapon will never get stolen and used at a school? If your weapon is stolen, and used, don't you become liable to some extent for having it where it could be stolen? This concept worries me. Putting more guns out there isn't going to stop shootings, just make it so those of us without weapons get caught in the crossfire.

These were the concerns I raised on another thread. Many of our kids are very enthralled with weapons. Lets not forget the incident a few summers ago when several signed themselves out of school and went through neighboring houses, stole weapons and then placed them along the path back to school.

I'm also concerned that lifting the CHL restriction will not only open the door for staff to carry, but we will also have parents, visitors, and other people carrying as well. There seems to be an assumption that only sane, stable people get CHL licenses. I think the wider you open the door, the more likely you will be to empower and make way for the crazies we are trying to protect ourselves against.

[Mestral]

http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-2012.pdf

Statistics from the American Journal of Public Health, DOI: 10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099
http://ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2008.14309

Ok, without even reading these, I already know what is in them.
I recognize the rabid anti-gun lobby that produced them.
Now, do you have any real statistical evidence?

[mac]

ok then, let me open it up. you said it, i didn't......tell me one civil right lost by anyone as a result of 9/11 and/or the patriot act you cite......mac


I haven't personally felt the loss of a civil right, and maybe you haven't either. But under the Patriot Act many have, and the potential for more was possible.

http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-vs-const.html

[engteach64]

That was my opinion, but thanks Imagine for backing me up.

[Mestral]

what's the governor got to do with it?....macHe indicated he would introduce legislation to reduce the number of certified helpless victims zones in Texas.


please tell me a civil right or two that i lost as a result of the 9/11 attacks. the only lost civil right that i'm aware of is the right to live by those who were slaughtered......macI believe they are referring to the First, Fourth, and Sixth Amendments, which took a beating, as people were detained for certain speech, searched without warrant, and detained without speedy trial. The panic danger today is that the 2nd will take another beating, at the hands of degenerates like Pelosi.

[Mestral]

. . . I think the wider you open the door, the more likely you will be to empower and make way for the crazies we are trying to protect ourselves against.I don't think the crazies will need you to hold the door for them. They are capable of doing that all on their own. All you are going to do is ensure more kids are killed before anyone can react.

[mac]

mestral: i know of no one who was detained for certain speech unless it was akin to something like hollering fire in a crowded theater, nor do i know of anyone who was searched without a warrant or their permission. as far as detention without a speedy trial, that has nothing to do with the patriot act.....we've been doing that for over a century. folks can spend over a decade in a county jail waiting for their case to go to trial.....mac


He indicated he would introduce legislation to reduce the number of certified helpless victims zones in Texas.

I believe they are referring to the First, Fourth, and Sixth Amendments, which took a beating, as people were detained for certain speech, searched without warrant, and detained without speedy trial. The panic danger today is that the 2nd will take another beating, at the hands of degenerates like Pelosi.

[mac]

mestral: i don't think it's the governor who's blocking our teachers from being able to arm themselves in their classrooms. i believe it's what the teachers call "District".....mac


He indicated he would introduce legislation to reduce the number of certified helpless victims zones in Texas.

I believe they are referring to the First, Fourth, and Sixth Amendments, which took a beating, as people were detained for certain speech, searched without warrant, and detained without speedy trial. The panic danger today is that the 2nd will take another beating, at the hands of degenerates like Pelosi.

[Mestral]

mestral: i know of no one who was detained for certain speech unless it was akin to something like hollering fire in a crowded theater, nor do i know of anyone who was searched without a warrant or their permission. as far as detention without a speedy trial, that has nothing to do with the patriot act.....we've been doing that for over a century. folks can spend over a decade in a county jail waiting for their case to go to trial.....macWell, in the first two cases, I do.
And in the third, I didn't know we had been that blatant in disregarding the sixth amendment in the past.

What I do know, is that this series of over 1000 posts across more than a dozen threads has told me who I can count on, who the liberals are that may soon come looting me, and who the moderates are. I am thankful most here have a good head on their shoulders, but am saddened that some here just won't be prepared when things go bad.

[Night Owl]

These were the concerns I raised on another thread. Many of our kids are very enthralled with weapons. Lets not forget the incident a few summers ago when several signed themselves out of school and went through neighboring houses, stole weapons and then placed them along the path back to school.

I'm also concerned that lifting the CHL restriction will not only open the door for staff to carry, but we will also have parents, visitors, and other people carrying as well. There seems to be an assumption that only sane, stable people get CHL licenses. I think the wider you open the door, the more likely you will be to empower and make way for the crazies we are trying to protect ourselves against.

And you would rather that the crazies can go about their deed without fear. You are leaving our children at the mercy of these crazies, is that what you are really saying? I sure hope not.

[mac]

oops! there i go again, confusing the issue with those pesky facts.....mac

mestral: i don't think it's the governor who's blocking our teachers from being able to arm themselves in their classrooms. i believe it's what the teachers call "District".....mac

[bbh]

I've never wavered in my strong support of the 2nd Amendment. I want to be able to keep and/or increase the small arsenal of weapons we have in our home. My husband is licensed to carry concealed weapons, and I plan on getting mine as soon as I can.

My opinion on concealed weapons in schools, however, is evolving......I'm trying to examine all sides of the issue.....and it's changed somewhat since the Newtown tragedy. At the moment, I'm not comfortable with the idea of being in my school building daily with 2400 high school students (a majority of whom are great kids and a minority of whom are not) and an unlimited number of adults with loaded weapons.

However, I would be comfortable with requiring the building principal and at least two assistant principals to be licensed and armed, along with allowing a select number of teachers to also be licensed and armed.

And I still think that every school -- elementary, middle, and high school -- should have at least one KISD or off-duty municipal police officer on campus every day, all day. I think the cost is justified. We can cut some other, less necessary expenses to pay for it.

[Mestral]

. . .

However, I would be comfortable with requiring the building principal and at least two assistant principals to be licensed and armed, along with allowing a select number of teachers to also be licensed and armed.

And I still think that every school -- elementary, middle, and high school -- should have at least one KISD or off-duty municipal police officer on campus every day, all day. I think the cost is justified. We can cut some other, less necessary expenses to pay for it.
Well, that would be a reasonable compromise. At least at smaller schools. At larger schools, it would depend on how many select teachers would be armed. I would refer you back to my stated goal of one or more guns per primary exit. (My high school, similar in size to Columbine, had over a dozen major exits - that is exits off of hallways through double doors, most through multiple double doors)

[engteach64]

Okay, just for clarification...when I speak, it is my opinion of the world in which I live. If I am stating a fact, I will begin with "statistics show..." If I don't say that, it is my personal opinion, which I'm pretty sure I have a right to have.

**Also, I have no issues with people owning guns. My problem comes when people start walking around with hidden weapons.

[Mestral]

Okay, just for clarification...when I speak, it is my opinion of the world in which I live. If I am stating a fact, I will begin with "statistics show..." If I don't say that, it is my personal opinion, which I'm pretty sure I have a right to have.

**Also, I have no issues with people owning guns. My problem comes when people start walking around with hidden weapons.My response was not responding to your discomfort, mine was in response to the postings of links to those known to twist statistics.

(For instance, a 20 year old thug in the commission of a crime, killed by a cop, was listed as "child, murdered by handgun")

[Imagine]

True; anyone can twist statistics; that's why we need to look at the statistics and then do the best we can, guided by our own thoughts and beliefs. I like that this forum gives us a place to exchange ideas; sometimes our ideas clash, but without the free exchange and even clash of ideas growth and best possible solutions would evade us.

This is an incredibly polarizing issue, and I will look anywhere for statistics even if they are published by organizations I disagree with or involve individuals who aren't necessarily the highest-upstanding citizens we have.

I've even been know to quote a few Republicans.

[Imagine]

Well, that would be a reasonable compromise. At least at smaller schools. At larger schools, it would depend on how many select teachers would be armed. I would refer you back to my stated goal of one or more guns per primary exit. (My high school, similar in size to Columbine, had over a dozen major exits - that is exits off of hallways through double doors, most through multiple double doors)

Same here as far as doors to the building go. and my classroom is almost right inside one of the outside doors. Compromise as to principal and select AP's being armed may be the way to go. As to teachers: how to decide which teachers would be allowed to bring weapons. I can think of two that I would be very uncomfortable around knowing or wondering if they were armed.

[Yve]

However, I would be comfortable with requiring the building principal and at least two assistant principals to be licensed and armed, along with allowing a select number of teachers to also be licensed and armed.

bbh--I would be very comfortable with your principal being armed. He's a hunter and he's grown up with guns but hasn't killed anyone (that I know of) yet. He's also very level-headed. He also was out and about during morning duty--talking with the kids, parents and staff. He was a very visible presence on our campus and a non-threatening one, which means he gained the trust of staff. I've also seen him put his "game face" on at a moment's notice, so I know he's not afraid to confront tough situations. I think he would be right on scene if something happened and I would trust his judgement.

My principal is another issue. I would NOT be comfortable with my principal or either of my AP's holding a concealed weapon on campus. I don't have confidence that they would be in the right place at the right time. Given the head games and intimidation used by some of my current admin, I would hate to have them have to hold a weapon as a part of their job knowing that they already violate the trust of their staff with simple words and deeds. Before I trust their judgement with a weapon, I need reason to trust their judgment in other areas.
________________________________________

My problem with all of this is that there seems to be an underlying assumption that because one holds a license and takes a class, that they are safe and qualified to defend the rest of us. We have incidents where police have abused their trust and ignored their training and I'm sure their training is waaaaaay more extensive than a one day class for the CHL license. I'm sure if anyone cares to search it out, there are many incidents where poor judgement was exhibited by a CHL holder that resulted in a weapon being unsecured, or a weapon being misused. Does it happen a lot? I sure hope not, but I think it is irresponsible to ignore the possibility and the impact it would have in a school environment. I'm glad you want to put my life in the hands of so many by increasing the number of weapons in my work place. I would still be much more comfortable with police or security who are dedicated to the safety of the campus as their primary job.

Just curious--at least one of you who supports this also frequently posted news articles of teachers who hit a student when she felt threatened, teachers who allegedly did or said unprofessional things to their students, and the frequent sex offender educators who make the news. You admittedly have pointed out that not every educator is trustworthy or exhibits good judgement--would you like the same armed in masse? BTW, most of these would probably pass through qualifications to get a weapon since most were "considered" to be law abiding prior to the incident that made the news. All were fingerprinted and made whatever cuts necessary to be placed in the classroom as a "highly qualified" educator.

[Imagine]

My response was not responding to your discomfort, mine was in response to the postings of links to those known to twist statistics.

(For instance, a 20 year old thug in the commission of a crime, killed by a cop, was listed as "child, murdered by handgun")


I rather think the links posted you are referring to are ones I posted from the children's defense league. My intent is NOT to make anyone uncomfortable. I posted that in response to another person who challenged me to come up with statistics. I do not want to inflame emotions or to disparage or insult people that I don't agree with yet [and may never agree with]; for all I know you and I teach at the same school. I want to find facts to support either and/or both sides of this issue because I am truly torn as to what is best. I also teach at a high school in Killeen (with LOTS of doors that stand open constantly..the security vestibules are essentially window-dressing), and I have 4 grandchildren that I worry about: 2 grade school, one kindergarten, and one preschool.

Plus, I'm no hero; I freely admit that I worry about myself too. I have been threatened several times by high school students; I know of other teachers who have been threatened by students and parents.

A couple of my students have asked me during shelter-in-place drills what I would do if a gunman came in our room; realistically, the only 100% truthful answer I would be able to give them is "PRAY." Anything else would be by the grace of God or caused by my own shortcomings.

For me, for now: I will never have a gun in my possession, and I am still uncomfortable with the idea of armed people on campus except for trained law enforcement professionals.

[mac]

yve: what you seem to want is an "iron clad guarantee"....but that just ain't gonna happen. you just have to try to get as close to it as you can but you'll never get there.....any endeavor with people involved will allways have it's weaknesses, quirks and maniacs....

i would think you would want to ask yourself the question "are my kiddos and i safer in a building that everyone knows has no guns in it or are they safer in a building where folks know that some teachers or staff may be carrying concealed weapons?....mac


bbh--I would be very comfortable with your principal being armed. He's a hunter and he's grown up with guns but hasn't killed anyone (that I know of) yet. He's also very level-headed. He also was out and about during morning duty--talking with the kids, parents and staff. He was a very visible presence on our campus and a non-threatening one, which means he gained the trust of staff. I've also seen him put his "game face" on at a moment's notice, so I know he's not afraid to confront tough situations. I think he would be right on scene if something happened and I would trust his judgement.

My principal is another issue. I would NOT be comfortable with my principal or either of my AP's holding a concealed weapon on campus. I don't have confidence that they would be in the right place at the right time. Given the head games and intimidation used by some of my current admin, I would hate to have them have to hold a weapon as a part of their job knowing that they already violate the trust of their staff with simple words and deeds. Before I trust their judgement with a weapon, I need reason to trust their judgment in other areas.
________________________________________

My problem with all of this is that there seems to be an underlying assumption that because one holds a license and takes a class, that they are safe and qualified to defend the rest of us. We have incidents where police have abused their trust and ignored their training and I'm sure their training is waaaaaay more extensive than a one day class for the CHL license. I'm sure if anyone cares to search it out, there are many incidents where poor judgement was exhibited by a CHL holder that resulted in a weapon being unsecured, or a weapon being misused. Does it happen a lot? I sure hope not, but I think it is irresponsible to ignore the possibility and the impact it would have in a school environment. I'm glad you want to put my life in the hands of so many by increasing the number of weapons in my work place. I would still be much more comfortable with police or security who are dedicated to the safety of the campus as their primary job.

Just curious--at least one of you who supports this also frequently posted news articles of teachers who hit a student when she felt threatened, teachers who allegedly did or said unprofessional things to their students, and the frequent sex offender educators who make the news. You admittedly have pointed out that not every educator is trustworthy or exhibits good judgement--would you like the same armed in masse? BTW, most of these would probably pass through qualifications to get a weapon since most were "considered" to be law abiding prior to the incident that made the news. All were fingerprinted and made whatever cuts necessary to be placed in the classroom as a "highly qualified" educator.

[sojourner truth]

The other factor is the "what if" factor. "If I had a gun, would my children have been better off?" I keep thinking of Sasanna Gratia-Hupp whos mom and dad were kileed in the Lubys shoootings. She had a gun in the car but left it there in order to obey the law. That was prior to conceal/carry. She was central in conceiving our current gun laws in Texas. "If" is a terrible thing to live with.

Ask yourself..What "IF" the principal of Sandy Hook had had a gun?

There is a terrible balance here to consider. What is best for the kids? What is uncomfortable with the teachers? Questions that need real answers before some one else has to deal with "WHAT IF".

[bbh]

IF I could set the policy, I would insist that all school personnel who are designated to carry go through extensive law-enforcement type training, not just your average licensing. Admittedly, I don't know what the answer is for having someone designated who is not acceptable to other faculty personnel. Maybe there should be some anonymous avenue in which to express concerns regarding that person.

Yve, you are right that I'm fortunate to have a principal like David Manley who is unquestionably trustworthy. In fact, I've only had three principals in my teaching career -- Corbett Lawler, Ralph Bray, and David Manley. I would be totally confident that any of them would handle a dangerous situation in the best way humanly possible. I'm so sad for you that you aren't able to have a principal now whom you can trust. There should not be a single principal in this District whom the staff cannot trust.

[siamcat]

While I can understand a certain amount of unease at knowing that some of your colleagues carry a concealed weapon not being allowed to carry on campus does not stop a person determined to do harm to carry a weapon onto the campus and start shooting. It could be a parent, a student, a teacher, a custodian, pretty much anybody who enters campus. For all you know some teachers already carry (yes they would be breaking the law). Unless you make every person go through a metal detector (some plastic guns probably make it through) you have no idea who is or is not carrying.
Having teachers and staff be able to carry a concealed weapon if they so choose gives them the opportunity to fight back, hopefully stopping the person wanting to do harm.

You could have a special liscense to carry in schools that requires more training and a psych eval.

[Grammar Rules]

I do not want to inflame emotions or to disparage or insult people that I don't agree with yet [and may never agree with]; for all I know you and I teach at the same school. (Preceding post by Imagine was addressed to Mestral)

I will be surprised if the subject of posting more cops in schools and possibly allowing licensed teachers to carry does not come up at a Board meeting in the near future.

This forum generally has about as many non-member "guest" viewers as members, some of whom may be Board members, influential community members, and administrators. Some of these will be at least interested in weighing the opinions and arguments of some of the teachers here.

Not everyone who posts in this section is a teacher. Mestral is not, nor is mac, nor is Sojourner. Their opinions as citizens and taxpayers are as valid as anyone's but please be aware that some of those here come with a different viewpoint.

[Yve]

I also teach at a high school in Killeen (with LOTS of doors that stand open constantly..the security vestibules are essentially window-dressing), and I have 4 grandchildren that I worry about: 2 grade school, one kindergarten, and one preschool.

IMHO, before we open up campuses to CHL holders, we should be taking care of those known areas that put our kids at risk. At present, our campus is more secure than it has been since most doors are kept locked and our security vestibule is pretty firmly in place. Even so, kids prop doors so they can get in or allow others in. I've undone more of a few of these little traps and I'm sure there are many I don't know of.

We have shelter in place drills, but not as often as we should. I've only participated in three in my eight year experience with KISD. IMHO, with the movement we have (new teachers, teachers changing rooms, etc.), I think a mock drill during inservice would be a good idea so that teachers can flesh out "what would I do" with their current classroom setup, and then do a regular drill using that plan shortly after school starts. The shelter in place is not as simple as a fire drill since we have to think about how to get kids in the safest part of the room as quickly and quietly as possible--and every room set up is different.

Bottom line is that there are TONS of very practical things we should be doing already to improve campus safety. CHL access is one issue that is a more distant reality. There are things immediately in our power that don't require permission from the governor for us to work on. If we're not starting there, again, I don't have confidence in the coming judgments on other issues.


Plus, I'm no hero; I freely admit that I worry about myself too. I have been threatened several times by high school students; I know of other teachers who have been threatened by students and parents.

That is an issue that should be addressed too. The best backup I ever had was when one of my admin said to a parent "Do not speak to my teacher that way". On the same campus, a counselor noticed a particular parent coming to my room after the front desk was closed and they make firm and decisive steps to put it to a halt. If we already have teachers harassed by parents and students, then we have a powder keg that needs to be dealt with--before it gets to something more serious. We want weapons to protect, but we haven't dealt with the more minor and easily addressable issues. On my campus, we have a few parents that "go teacher hunting". They are up there for every little complaint, and once in the building after hours, they go wherever they want unescorted.


A couple of my students have asked me during shelter-in-place drills what I would do if a gunman came in our room; realistically, the only 100% truthful answer I would be able to give them is "PRAY." Anything else would be by the grace of God or caused by my own shortcomings.


I'm with you all the way. I haven't told my students--but then we don't practice this often enough to inspire many questions. I've run the scenario through my mind--and I know what I plan to do--and at this point, that and praying for my kids daily is the best I know how to do.

[Yve]

yve: what you seem to want is an "iron clad guarantee"....but that just ain't gonna happen. you just have to try to get as close to it as you can but you'll never get there.....any endeavor with people involved will allways have it's weaknesses, quirks and maniacs....

i would think you would want to ask yourself the question "are my kiddos and i safer in a building that everyone knows has no guns in it or are they safer in a building where folks know that some teachers or staff may be carrying concealed weapons?....mac

Maybe knowing some of my staff members has caused concern that they NOT be armed. Ever thought of that?

[corgifan]

I say all this concealed handgun talk is a waste of time in the KISD thread. Does anyone really believe that the board and Dr. Mueller will ever approve of KISD teachers packing on campus? No way, no how. Never.

[Scarlett]

I say all this concealed handgun talk is a waste of time in the KISD thread. Does anyone really believe that the board and Dr. Mueller will ever approve of KISD teachers packing on campus? No way, no how. Never.

I absolutely agree. I'm getting my CHL tomorrow because it's being offered for free to all teachers. I'm not getting it because I think I'll ever be allowed to carry at school. I cannot imagine KISD allowing it.

[mac]

too easy, corgi, it's like saying man will never stand on the moon. you'll never know till you you ask him....and of course, there's the old saw that goes, sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.....but i'd at least give the guy a chance.....wouldn't cost you a dime.......and getting permission doesn't mean you have to start packin'....it just means that if yoiu wake up some morning with a terrible feeling or intuition that you may pack to school if you want to. i don't think any of us out here are saying that some of you have to pack....we're only sayhing, i'm only saying that you should have the right to....mac


I say all this concealed handgun talk is a waste of time in the KISD thread. Does anyone really believe that the board and Dr. Mueller will ever approve of KISD teachers packing on campus? No way, no how. Never.

[corgifan]

We also need to address the fact that you can button up every elementary campus like Fort Knox, but a motivated killer with a semi-automatic weapon has fields filled with hundreds of kids during lunch recess, smaller fenced in playgrounds filled with pre-k and kindergarten students, and 50 to 100 kids transitioning to and from the relative safety of the campus building and the physical education buildings like clockwork every 45 minutes or so, this last literally all day long.

[xzochye]

If KISD did allow teachers to carry I wonder how many actually would? I doubt the numbers are as high as some would like to think they would be.

[Scarlett]

If KISD did allow teachers to carry I wonder how many actually would? I doubt the numbers are as high as some would like to think they would be.

I wouldn't hesitate.

[mac]

i s'pect it would be a very small percentage on any given ay....but it doesn't matter. that's the beauty of it. the perp doesn't know.....he doesn't know what he's gonna face when he walks through that first door with his ...gear. the one in connecticut had to shoot the glass out by the front door to reach inside and turn the knob and get his gear inside. the principal who was in her office just inside by the door came "out front" to see what was happenin', saw all the guns and every thing and wound up throwin' her body at him instead of 120 grains of hot lead....mac


I wouldn't hesitate.

[engteach64]

No matter what happens, there will always be a "what if." There is always a question that someone could have done something. If teachers carry weapons, then the questions would be, "what if the teacher with the weapon had been there..." Someone will always get hurt. I personally don't want to be the person to have to shoot a child, no matter how misguided, but what if...

[mac]

there's also this to consider. when do you shoot? when you see the weapon? after the first child is killed....when he aims at you.....when do you pop the cap....mac


No matter what happens, there will always be a "what if." There is always a question that someone could have done something. If teachers carry weapons, then the questions would be, "what if the teacher with the weapon had been there..." Someone will always get hurt. I personally don't want to be the person to have to shoot a child, no matter how misguided, but what if...

[sojourner truth]

I wouldn't blame a lot of teachers for not wanting to carry that responsibility. It's your call..that and the districts.

I can carry, and seldom do unless I'm travelling to some place I am not familiar with, or feel uncomfortable in. It's just another option. Still, having a ready, armed alert team of professional officers in the schools would be an improvement. In the case of a nutbag shooting at the kiddos, a team like that could be the difference between one child being shot, or dozens.

It would be just as bad to have a teacher use his/her gun and find out it wasn't necessary as to not have them have one when it is needed.

Having a gun is a big responsibility, and not to be taken lightly, but only to those who are responsible citizens. All the same...you never need a gun until you DESPERATELY need one.

[Mestral]

I rather think the links posted you are referring to are ones I posted from the children's defense league. My intent is NOT to make anyone uncomfortable. . .
I kinda over reacted. I suspect you didn't know, there are a few organizations out there (a professional pediatric doctor's organization for one) that are promoting lies about guns. Their political agenda outweighs any thought of integrity. And I find any use of their statistics insulting, like saying I am stupid enough to buy their trash. But I shouldn't take it out on you.


(Preceding post by Imagine was addressed to Mestral) . . .
Not everyone who posts in this section is a teacher. Mestral is not, . . .Quite correct. Many of the my coworkers are the parents you guys talk about. The out of balance ones.


If KISD did allow teachers to carry I wonder how many actually would? I doubt the numbers are as high as some would like to think they would be.Not many, I hope. Remember, my school had about 60 teachers and 60 support staff. Two guards, two principals and 11 of the teachers and staff would be enough to cover all the exits. That is 10%. And even that isn't really necessary, if the weapons are concealed, the intruder doesn't know who might have a weapon.

[tired teacher-mom]

Just an FYI-mac IS a teacher. Mac is a really good teacher that would protect her/his students. You know what they say happens when you assume.....

[xzochye]

Just an FYI-mac IS a teacher. Mac is a really good teacher that would protect her/his students. You know what they say happens when you assume.....

Mac is not a teacher but Macs is. :)

[Grammar Rules]

Easily confused. mac was on CTT first, and Macs wasn't happy that her name was already in use. :p

[FieryPrincess]

If a teacher was going to carry on school grounds on a regular basis, I would not have a problem with the teacher going through some additional training and probably even a psyche exam.

We'e under verbal fire often enough as it is without inviting extra reasons for the media and political agendas of all varieties to use us as fodder.

[Sloane Peterson]

I would not only carry the day it was allowed, but it would also be that little push for me to buy a new pistol I have had my eye on and have been waiting for my tax returns to buy.

[corgifan]

This is one of the educational reforms that is desperately needed - the ability to get rid of teachers without taking three years to do so.
I'm not sure why you believe it takes 3 years to oust a bad teacher. It can be done (and has been done) within a single school year. The problem is with administrators who don't pursue the action.

[Imagine]

[QUOTE=FieryPrincess;246476

We'e under verbal fire often enough as it is without inviting extra reasons for the media and political agendas of all varieties to use us as fodder.[/QUOTE]

They need reasons?

[CenTexDave]

http://www.kxxv.com/story/20472977/central-texas-teachers-take-advantage-of-gun-classes

[Scarlett]

Me and a few other forum peeps are sitting in that class right now!

[sojourner truth]

Hey, let's all go to the range for some fun!!!!

[ScienceSaurusRex]

I have been watching fascinated.

People are worried about unstable teachers or parents bringing weapons to school. Since they are unstable how do you know they are not already doing it? When was the last time you saw a visitor searched?

Leaving a gun in a purse or pack laying around is a major no no. The gun should always be on the teachers/admins person.

I have a CCL but I am not sure I would carry every day if permitted. I would have had it on the 21st.

I'm not sure even psychologists would trust psychological evaluations. They never seem to agree on much or catch things in time.

[Mestral]

Hey, let's all go to the range for some fun!!!!

How about when it gets warmer?
My health is not so bad that I can't work in this weather,
but bad enough I can't enjoy it like when I was 25.

. . . .I'm not sure even psychologists would trust psychological evaluations. They never seem to agree on much or catch things in time.One very good reason they should maintain their patient confidentiality.

[sojourner truth]

Major Hasan is a great example of what happens when the system knows someone is a bad apple, but does nothing about it. My son in laws dad is a psychiatrist, and one of the biggest nutbags I know. I love the guy, but he is definitely in a different universe.

Gun show on the 6th and 7th at the Expo center everyone..Time to stock up. Or for you that haven't done so yet, time to get one while you still can.

[Rick]

Minor correction, it's the 5th and 6th. This coming Saturday and Sunday

Oh and, good luck trying to get something at a reasonable price.

[bbh]

The supply is low. The last show had almost nothing.

[mac]

did you see that guy in the parking lot with that trailer full of SKSs? i wonder what that was all about....state cops stopped me and asked me all kinds of questions because i talked to him a while out there by his trailer....mac


The supply is low. The last show had almost nothing.

[sojourner truth]

SKS's? Who'd want one of those when you can get an AK? I suppose the price was about half that of an AK, but the mag capacity is, well...inadequate. That's why Kalashnikov invented the AK. I'd rather have an M1A (which I do have). A little more costly, but at least it's accurate.

Missed the guy with the SKS's...He wasn't, by any chance, short, fat and bald was he? Or go by "Robert"?

[Scarlett]

I killed my blue man.....
3189

[olderthandirt]

You go, girl!

[Night Owl]

Excellent, but why was he laying down?:))

[Night Owl]

Did you have fun?

[Scarlett]

I'm not sure why this phone turns the pictures sideways.
Fun? Absolutely! I always have fun shooting guns. I don't own one so I rarely get to... But I like it and apparently I didn't forget how to aim!

[macs]

(Preceding post by Imagine was addressed to Mestral)

I will be surprised if the subject of posting more cops in schools and possibly allowing licensed teachers to carry does not come up at a Board meeting in the near future.

I have brought the question forward through DEAC which means we will get some sort of answer one way or the other. At least they will know people are wanting an answer and surely we will be told whether they will decide on the matter.

In regards to people talking about "masses" carrying guns to school....imo, i dont think we will have masses at all. Again, imo, if you dont already have your CHL and have no real plans of getting it, i dont think they will jump up and go get it. Also some of you mention assigning certain people only to carry. If it comes to an assignment, i will refuse and i think i am only one of two who has a license at my school. It is supposd to be concealed and should not be open as to who is carrying. If i carry, trust me when i say NO ONE will know whether i am or not.

[macs]

I say all this concealed handgun talk is a waste of time in the KISD thread. Does anyone really believe that the board and Dr. Mueller will ever approve of KISD teachers packing on campus? No way, no how. Never.

Like i said, as far as DEAC, we will soon find out. If he says no, that is fine, but it will forever be on his conscious should something happen because the decision will be in writing.

[macs]

there's also this to consider. when do you shoot? when you see the weapon? after the first child is killed....when he aims at you.....when do you pop the cap....mac

There's no when? for me. When i fear for my life or the life of others, i will shoot all the way until you are on the ground. You will have to do something to make me fear for my life. Thats whats nice about keeping it concealed. I shouldn't see you walking around with a gun out. If you are, you have wrong intentions.

[Grammar Rules]

That's an interesting question, mac (no s), what would be your advice?

[Mestral]

There's no when? for me. When i fear for my life or the life of others, i will shoot all the way until you are on the ground. You will have to do something to make me fear for my life. Thats whats nice about keeping it concealed. I shouldn't see you walking around with a gun out. If you are, you have wrong intentions.You already have the right attitude, though you should relax a little (shooings are still rare enough that you have less than 1% chance of seeing a shooter at your school in the next year.)
Tactics is next. You have to understand (and you probably do, that if you see a gun come out, you have to know what the target is. If the target is another bad guy you might be drawing on a good guy. This actually happened at a recent shooting, but thankfully the person who saw the guy draw knew that was a possibility and didn't shoot the good guy with a gun. Of course, if they are the only one big enough to know what they are doing with a gun, or if you are the target, that makes the tactical decision easy.
The next thing is skill. My personal weakness is my eyes. I can't acquire my front sight quickly. The faster you can acquire your sight picture, the faster and straighter you can shoot.

[Grammar Rules]

Excellent, but why was he laying down?:))

He wasn't lying down until after she killed him. Multiple times. With MY 380. Hahahhhahahahah...yes, I was there with some of the other Central Texas teachers who were happy to show up for a FREE inservice on New Year's Eve. In the freaking cold rain. In Axtell, Texas. :rolleyes

I used the 45 since my hands are a little bigger than Scarlett's, but not much, and although she is an absolute dead-center kill shooter and the very best in the entire training group, I also killed my guy. So there.

[Scarlett]

He wasn't lying down until after she killed him. Multiple times. With MY 380. Hahahhhahahahah...yes, I was there with some of the other Central Texas teachers who were happy to show up for a FREE inservice on New Year's Eve. In the freaking cold rain. In Axtell, Texas. :rolleyes

I used the 45 since my hands are a little bigger than Scarlett's, but not much, and although she is an absolute dead-center kill shooter and the very best in the entire training group, I also killed my guy. So there.

It was an absolute blast with you friend! And I LOVE that gun of yours... I want it! Your dead blue man was also impressive... But since I only have a picture of it that includes you I shall never post it!

[Grammar Rules]

I didn't look great when I arrived, but after hours standing around in the cold misty rain trying to get my grip right, I looked totally wrung out!

It was fun, though.;)

[sojourner truth]

Don't forget the gun show at the Expo center Friday and Saturday!!! Get one for youself, and then make a few trips to the range. It really is a fun sport (if you can call it a sport). $10 gets you a membership at Astro Range, and $10 a trip. No time limit on how long you can shoot, and it is set up for both handguns and long arms.

.380 autos are fairly cheap, if not a bit small. They still beat having nothing. I have one for when I travel.

The background check only takes a few minutes. You can buy ammo on the way out.

[mac]

I wouldn't care to bet either way on whether an effort to get teachers the right to be armed at their work place will be sucessful or not. BUT i would lay good odds that you will not get a signed "No". I would guess that this person who has the authority to say yes or no is way too savvy and good a bureaucrat to do something like that.....he will, if he wants to say no, find a way to make it a "shared" decision but not his....he will establish a board or a commission or a comittee or something like that an you'll be informed of what the groups decision is. I really hope you guys are sucessful....it's you folks who are truely the "first responders" in cases like this, not the cops.....mac


Like i said, as far as DEAC, we will soon find out. If he says no, that is fine, but it will forever be on his conscious should something happen because the decision will be in writing.

[mac]

actually grammar, i posed the question as rhetorical. i thought maybe the class would ask their instructor about it but obviouisly left that out....my bad....

as far as me, personally, i would pull the weapon as soon as i saw he was armed and order him to lay the weapon down and move away from it and and fire as soon as he started to draw down on me....or anyone. i'm pretty sure, however, that your instructor prob'ly told you not to pull the gun unless you intended to shoot it, not to use it to try to convince someone to do what you want them to do.....mac


That's an interesting question, mac (no s), what would be your advice?

[Mestral]

actually grammar, i posed the question as rhetorical. i thought maybe the class would ask their instructor about it but obviouisly left that out....my bad....

as far as me, personally, i would pull the weapon as soon as i saw he was armed and order him to lay the weapon down and move away from it and and fire as soon as he started to draw down on me....or anyone. i'm pretty sure, however, that your instructor prob'ly told you not to pull the gun unless you intended to shoot it, not to use it to try to convince someone to do what you want them to do.....mac
I have an outline of the class from a former student, and when to use or not use force, as well as deescalation is covered. The thing about don't draw unless you intend to shoot should be don't draw unless you are willing to shoot, but in a gun fight the difference might be a millisecond. If there isn't a need to shoot, there usually isn't a need to draw, but if you draw and the bad guy immediately drops his gun, there could be an occasion not to shoot. Generally, if someone is aiming at somebody I have responsibility to protect, the first thing the bad guy is going to see is a muzzle flash.

[Mestral]

I didn't look great when I arrived, but after hours standing around in the cold misty rain trying to get my grip right, I looked totally wrung out!

It was fun, though.;)I think your husband would back me up when I say that any woman holding a gun is a good looking woman. :)

[corgifan]

as far as me, personally, i would pull the weapon as soon as i saw he was armed and order him to lay the weapon down and move away from it and and fire as soon as he started to draw down on me.

I can guarantee that this scenario will not be the one that is played out in the event of a lock down and a killer roaming the halls. Miss Smithenwesson will be hunkered down in the farthest corner of the room with 20 or so scared out of the minds crying kids behind her. If she has a weapon it will be trained on the door. If the door flies open she will start blasting. No challenges. No waiting to see if the maniac is drawing on her. Just fire at will and hope for the best.

Now, getting back to my question that no one has answered. What is the scenario for the most vulnerable of kids, those that are out on the playgrounds? Are the aides packing? Are the teachers who are picking up and dropping off their classes for recess and PE packing? If Joe Psycho shows up with his AR-15 are they going to take the time to order him to lay his weapon down and move away from it? (As if he will do it to begin with.) My guess is that they'll draw and start blasting, hoping against hope that a stray round doesn't find its way into the body of a student. Scary stuff.

[mac]

there's just way too much .....bad stuff in here for me to address....i'll leave it up to someone else and only say, never "fire at will and hope for the best", corgi. you will most assuredly only get the worst.....mac


I can guarantee that this scenario will not be the one that is played out in the event of a lock down and a killer roaming the halls. Miss Smithenwesson will be hunkered down in the farthest corner of the room with 20 or so scared out of the minds crying kids behind her. If she has a weapon it will be trained on the door. If the door flies open she will start blasting. No challenges. No waiting to see if the maniac is drawing on her. Just fire at will and hope for the best.

Now, getting back to my question that no one has answered. What is the scenario for the most vulnerable of kids, those that are out on the playgrounds? Are the aides packing? Are the teachers who are picking up and dropping off their classes for recess and PE packing? If Joe Psycho shows up with his AR-15 are they going to take the time to order him to lay his weapon down and move away from it? (As if he will do it to begin with.) My guess is that they'll draw and start blasting, hoping against hope that a stray round doesn't find its way into the body of a student. Scary stuff.

[Mestral]

I can guarantee that this scenario will not be the one that is played out in the event of a lock down and a killer roaming the halls. Miss Smithenwesson will be hunkered down in the farthest corner of the room with 20 or so scared out of the minds crying kids behind her. If she has a weapon it will be trained on the door. If the door flies open she will start blasting. No challenges. No waiting to see if the maniac is drawing on her. Just fire at will and hope for the best.

Now, getting back to my question that no one has answered. What is the scenario for the most vulnerable of kids, those that are out on the playgrounds? Are the aides packing? Are the teachers who are picking up and dropping off their classes for recess and PE packing? If Joe Psycho shows up with his AR-15 are they going to take the time to order him to lay his weapon down and move away from it? (As if he will do it to begin with.) My guess is that they'll draw and start blasting, hoping against hope that a stray round doesn't find its way into the body of a student. Scary stuff.
Are you always this clueless? Or are you just here to insult some teachers? Those who might carry in school will know enough not to blindly blast away. Also, you seem to think that because we cannot cover every possibility (yes, there might be an armed assailant approach the playground, but one of the armed personnel might carry out there too, that would be a decision made at the local level) there should be no attempt to cover the most of them.

[corgifan]

Let one teacher tell me they'd take the time to challenge a MANIAC who is hell bent on shooting up her kids, stating that they'll take the time to do the customary challenges. They all know that they'd get as far as "DROP YOUR WEAPON AND ST......" before all hell breaks loose. They will not let it even get to that point.

[corgifan]

Are you always this clueless? Or are you just here to insult some teachers? Those who might carry in school will know enough not to blindly blast away. Also, you seem to think that because we cannot cover every possibility (yes, there might be an armed assailant approach the playground, but one of the armed personnel might carry out there too, that would be a decision made at the local level) there should be no attempt to cover the most of them.
You're not a teacher, therefore I submit that in this case you are the clueless one. You are assuming that a teacher with a grand day long training period will behave like thoroughly trained security professionals. Laughable.

[Mestral]

You're not a teacher, therefore I submit that in this case you are the clueless one. You are assuming that a teacher with a grand day long training period will behave like thoroughly trained security professionals. Laughable.You don't seem to have been paying attention to the above message traffic. Most of these people have had a great deal more than one day.

[corgifan]

Oh, well that's different!
LOL

[Yve]

BUT i would lay good odds that you will not get a signed "No". I would guess that this person who has the authority to say yes or no is way too savvy and good a bureaucrat to do something like that.....he will, if he wants to say no, find a way to make it a "shared" decision but not his....he will establish a board or a commission or a comittee or something like that an you'll be informed of what the groups decision is.

That sounds just like a recent response I got on a safety issue from my principal. Still no response, and her team is "hand picked". No way they won't vote what she wants. If the sup is operating this way (which seems possible since this practice seems to be flourishing throughout the district), that is very scary indeed.

I would hope that our leadership would approach this from a perspective of protecting their students and staff--not from a political position, but I fear the latter is more true than the former.

[sojourner truth]

Yeah, and what happens when the psycho busts in your door and you don't have a thing but a pencil in your hand. I suppose that scenario is preferrable. Then, all of a sudden the guilt and "what if" factors kick in as you look at the dead kids on the floor. That is if you are still alive.

Who said that a one day class makes you a professional? No one but Corgi, who always deals in absolutes. Yep, lets just bury our head in the sand, ban guns, and hope for the best, right? So, what's the alternative here Corgi? You seem pretty good at criticizing, how about suggestion a solution. Or are you just simply against any solution?

When you get a gun, the best thing to do is learn how to use it, and responsibly. Some always have this picture of gun owners as wild eyed fanatics just looking for an excuse to pop someone. That just isn't the case. Fact is, gun ownership has gone up and violent crime has decreased in the past 20 years. Read that in the KDH this morning.

People who refuse to take measures to protect themselves and thier own have a name..It is "victim".

[Mestral]

That sounds just like a recent response I got on a safety issue from my principal. Still no response, and her team is "hand picked". No way they won't vote what she wants. If the sup is operating this way (which seems possible since this practice seems to be flourishing throughout the district), that is very scary indeed.

I would hope that our leadership would approach this from a perspective of protecting their students and staff--not from a political position, but I fear the latter is more true than the former.Well, as I understand it, it isn't up to a single person or an unnamed group, it is up to the school board, and I think that means KISD level. That could be good or bad. At least I think then it must be given a public hearing and public vote, but school boards are notoriously cowards, so that might not help, but at least then their names would be on their votes (unless there is a way they can do a secret vote on a school board).

[sojourner truth]

And as we all know, school boards and administration always make wise and enlightened decisions to solve their problems, right?

[Mestral]

Someone once said the efficiency of a bureaucracy is inversely proportional to the square of its size.
Some geeky version of Murphy's Law, IIRC.
(IIRC is If I Recall Correctly, for the normal folks.
Now, if I only knew what DEAC is :) )

[Grammar Rules]

I think your husband would back me up when I say that any woman holding a gun is a good looking woman. :)

Well, duh, he IS a native Texan. Besides, we've been married almost four decades. ;) He knows he has to say that.

Everyone has a piece of the puzzle on this thread, and y'all need to back off on my friend Corgi. She is correct about the District's needing to address safety when children are outside the building also. The truth is, if someone with a high capacity rapid fire weapon decides to open up anywhere there are large groups of people, malls, theaters, stadiums, or lines of kids moving out of a building for an evacuation or drill, one or two staff members with handguns would be behind the curve.

For all we know, in the aftermath of he bomb threats in Cove and the shootings in Newtown, KISD may already have formulated rapid response scenarios and plans. I hope so.

Even if KISD decided to allow licensed staff to carry, and that's a great big IF, we might all settle down and feel better about it, but I think it's largely staging and a panacea. Mere duct tape.

[FieryPrincess]

I have an outline of the class from a former student, and when to use or not use force, as well as deescalation is covered. The thing about don't draw unless you intend to shoot should be don't draw unless you are willing to shoot, but in a gun fight the difference might be a millisecond. If there isn't a need to shoot, there usually isn't a need to draw, but if you draw and the bad guy immediately drops his gun, there could be an occasion not to shoot. Generally, if someone is aiming at somebody I have responsibility to protect, the first thing the bad guy is going to see is a muzzle flash.


I was taught to only point at gun at someone if I planned to kill him/her. I was taught that if there was an intruder in the house, that I was to shoot to kill, not to wound.

When I was younger, I could not conceive of a situation where I would want to kill someone. Now, as a parent - I can.

[FieryPrincess]

Let one teacher tell me they'd take the time to challenge a MANIAC who is hell bent on shooting up her kids, stating that they'll take the time to do the customary challenges. They all know that they'd get as far as "DROP YOUR WEAPON AND ST......" before all hell breaks loose. They will not let it even get to that point.

I was taught not to offer ultimatums like that.

If you pull a gun because someone is threatening you and yours, you shoot.

[FieryPrincess]

Another thing to consider in the even that teachers are potentially allowed to carry - women's clothes aren't real amenable to concealed carry. Shoot - I had a hard time finding suits with pockets for my keys!

[corgifan]

Remember, when we're talking about a psychotic sociopath who doesn't regard people as human beings but rather as objects, this is a person hell bent to kill every living thing in his path. The Sandy Hook animal didn't enter the school to steal the kids' lunch money. His goal was to kill EVERYONE. Now put yourself in the shoes of the 2nd murdered teacher in room B. If I can hear my neighbor teaching her kids math facts in the adjoining room I'm sure she had no difficulty hearing multiple fast paced shots coming from next door, not to mention the screams of terror and pain from the teacher and the children. Then the shooting and screaming stopped. A moment later her door opens and in struts black-clad Rambo. If she had a S&W in her hands and called out "DROP YOUR WEAPON AND STEP AWAY!", well, those would have been the words she said. What the animal would have heard was "I'M OVER HERE! FIRE IN THE DIRECTION OF MY VOICE!" And everyone knows it. The rules of engagement do not apply to this situation.

[Scarlett]

Another thing to consider in the even that teachers are potentially allowed to carry - women's clothes aren't real amenable to concealed carry. Shoot - I had a hard time finding suits with pockets for my keys!

Already taken care of....

3192

[Night Owl]

You're not a teacher, therefore I submit that in this case you are the clueless one.

Typical reply. The masses are clueless but teacher knows best. I guess that is why the publicc school system is putting out such a great product.

[Scarlett]

Remember, when we're talking about a psychotic sociopath who doesn't regard people as human beings but rather as objects, this is a person hell bent to kill every living thing in his path. The Sandy Hook animal didn't enter the school to steal the kids' lunch money. His goal was to kill EVERYONE. Now put yourself in the shoes of the 2nd murdered teacher in room B. If I can hear my neighbor teaching her kids math facts in the adjoining room I'm sure she had no difficulty hearing multiple fast paced shots coming from next door, not to mention the screams of terror and pain from the teacher and the children. Then the shooting and screaming stopped. A moment later her door opens and in struts black-clad Rambo. If she had a S&W in her hands and called out "DROP YOUR WEAPON AND STEP AWAY!", well, those would have been the words she said. What the animal would have heard was "I'M OVER HERE! FIRE IN THE DIRECTION OF MY VOICE!" And everyone knows it. The rules of engagement do not apply to this situation.

If I heard my neighbor screaming and heard them being shot... then I heard him come to my room... Well if I had a weapon he would not hear me say, "Drop your weapon and step away." He would have heard a gunshot as it entered the center of his chest.

[mac]

i just gotta add something folks. i hear a whole lotta foks on here, no one in particular, who ain't never shot and killed someone telling all of us how quick and easily they would or could shoot and kill someone. i just gotta tell you....it's not as dammed easy as you think it is. lettin' that hammer fall on your first or 2nd kill is a .....huge decision.....i spent 18 monthss as a sniper in a program called phoenix in 69 and 70and i can tell you, the first couple of shots really comes hard....the 2nd one even more so than the first one becuse then you fully and really realize what you're getin' ready to do to yoiur target...mac

[Mestral]

If I heard my neighbor screaming and heard them being shot... then I heard him come to my room... Well if I had a weapon he would not hear me say, "Drop your weapon and step away." He would have heard a gunshot as it entered the center of his chest.Once multiple firearms discharges have occurred inside a closed building, the verbal challenge is moot, as the shooter isn't going to hear anything less than thunder for the next several days, if they do live. My post was meant to say that the teacher would (hopefully) know enough to not shoot a student or another teacher trying to take cover in her classroom. Of course, if the door has a good lock on it, that narrows who will enter. Also, I would hope the training would impress upon them (except for those who already know this) that firing blindly means you won't hit your target. Corgifan indicated they wouldn't have the sense to aim.


My guess is that they'll draw and start blasting, hoping against hope that a stray round doesn't find its way into the body of a student. Scary stuff.

[IronErnin]

Mac, there is a slight psychological difference between sniping and self defense shooting.
In a class on the use of force and deadly force, I stated clearly and confidently that I could and would kill in defense of myself or another. The instructor raised the same issue as you. I replied that I knew myself well enough to make such a statement, but that what I didn't know was how I'd feel about it afterward.

And Scarlett might be just a tad quick on the trigger. I was always taught to positively identify my target before shooting. Shooting as they enter the room might be a not so good idea.

[Mestral]

i just gotta add something folks. i hear a whole lotta foks on here, no one in particular, who ain't never shot and killed someone telling all of us how quick and easily they would or could shoot and kill someone. i just gotta tell you....it's not as dammed easy as you think it is. lettin' that hammer fall on your first or 2nd kill is a .....huge decision.....i spent 18 monthss as a sniper in a program called phoenix in 69 and 70and i can tell you, the first couple of shots really comes hard....the 2nd one even more so than the first one becuse then you fully and really realize what you're getin' ready to do to yoiur target...macBefore you fired those shots, did you have bullets passing by you at close range? I suspect the massive rush of adrenalin makes pulling the trigger easier, even though it makes aiming harder (much harder, as you usually can't even focus your eyes sharply.) I will say that I haven't killed anyone, though I have been shot at (it is a sound you never forget).

[mac]

yeppers, have had bullets go by me at close range.....two went in me and one of them went all the way through, took a kidney with it...but i understand your point. it's one hell of a difference engaging with full auto than takin' a planned and well sighted/aimed shot....mac


Before you fired those shots, did you have bullets passing by you at close range? I suspect the massive rush of adrenalin makes pulling the trigger easier, even though it makes aiming harder (much harder, as you usually can't even focus your eyes sharply.) I will say that I haven't killed anyone, though I have been shot at (it is a sound you never forget).

[Scarlett]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph... Y'all really are into tiny details in this exchange of words.
No... Scarlett would not be to quick on the trigger. No she would not shoot without knowing who she was shooting and aiming at. I guess I apparently need to clarify... IF YOU ENTERED MY CLASSROOM SHOOTING WITH A WEAPON AND ARE QUITE CLEARLY INTENDING TO HARM ME OR MY STUDENTS I WOULD SHOOT YOU WITHOUT HESITATION.
If I had a weapon on me... Which I don't.
In the meantime I will be sitting quietly on the floor with my students huddled around me awaiting our death.

[mac]

although we've never met we have had some..interplay and i believe you. i believe you'd do just fine, scarlett...mac


Jesus, Mary, and Joseph... Y'all really are into tiny details in this exchange of words.
No... Scarlett would not be to quick on the trigger. No she would not shoot without knowing who she was shooting and aiming at. I guess I apparently need to clarify... IF YOU ENTERED MY CLASSROOM SHOOTING WITH A WEAPON AND ARE QUITE CLEARLY INTENDING TO HARM ME OR MY STUDENTS I WOULD SHOOT YOU WITHOUT HESITATION.
If I had a weapon on me... Which I don't.
In the meantime I will be sitting quietly on the floor with my students huddled around me awaiting our death.

[Rick]

The bottom line is that no one knows how they will react in those situations. Those who have been in those situations have some experience.

Let's just hope and pray that none of us ever has to find out.

[siamcat]

I can guarantee that this scenario will not be the one that is played out in the event of a lock down and a killer roaming the halls. Miss Smithenwesson will be hunkered down in the farthest corner of the room with 20 or so scared out of the minds crying kids behind her. If she has a weapon it will be trained on the door. If the door flies open she will start blasting. No challenges. No waiting to see if the maniac is drawing on her. Just fire at will and hope for the best.

Now, getting back to my question that no one has answered. What is the scenario for the most vulnerable of kids, those that are out on the playgrounds? Are the aides packing? Are the teachers who are picking up and dropping off their classes for recess and PE packing? If Joe Psycho shows up with his AR-15 are they going to take the time to order him to lay his weapon down and move away from it? (As if he will do it to begin with.) My guess is that they'll draw and start blasting, hoping against hope that a stray round doesn't find its way into the body of a student. Scary stuff.

Well, right now all they can do is run, take cover, and pray for the best. At least if they have the option to be armed they have a better chance of survival and saving the kids.
All aspects of school security need to be looked at, but I don't understand why you think that armed teachers are a scarier choice then unarmed teachers.

[sojourner truth]

She has to look in the mirror every morning. Scarlett I would trust...Corgi, not so much.

[CenTexDave]

Look at it this way, ladies. She who hesitates is dead. Pull the trigger. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[Scarlett]

Look at it this way, ladies. She who hesitates is dead. Pull the trigger. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

The guy who did our training yesterday said these exact words.

[Mestral]

Already taken care of....

3192Well, since no one else seems willing to ask, what is your source for that belly band holster?
(I have seen several, but none quite like it)

[CenTexDave]

Thank you. I know y'all think I'm crazy, but I learned a long time ago - hesitate and you're dead.

[circle_c]

Hmm, if that's the case, seems to me if you hesitate, I'm not so sure you learn anything. :))

[sojourner truth]

Well, since no one else seems willing to ask, what is your source for that belly band holster?
(I have seen several, but none quite like it)

That's the best looking holster I have ever seen!!!

[Scarlett]

Well, since no one else seems willing to ask, what is your source for that belly band holster?
(I have seen several, but none quite like it)

Www.armedinheels.com

[sojourner truth]

While I admire the product for it's obvious ass..ets, I doubt if I could fit into it.:))

[Mestral]

Thanks, Scarlett, as I may have mentioned before, I have a daughter built like Jessica Rabbit that will someday need to carry a weapon, and I am looking for a holster for her. Difficult to find something that follows her curves.

[Grammar Rules]

While I admire the product for it's obvious ass..ets, I doubt if I could fit into it.:))

www.oldguyswithdunlapbellyholster.com

:))

JK

[Scarlett]

Thanks, Scarlett, as I may have mentioned before, I have a daughter built like Jessica Rabbit that will someday need to carry a weapon, and I am looking for a holster for her. Difficult to find something that follows her curves.

I'm not bad.... I'm just drawn that way.... Hahahaha

I shall be ordering one of these myself.

[sojourner truth]

www.oldguyswithdunlapbellyholster.com

:))

JK


Har dee har har..No dunlap, I just don't have that tush. I'm happy to say, I actually weigh 15 pounds less than I did when I retired in 1989.

That's from Mrs. Truth working me to death on the "honey do" list. Teachers are their worst when they retire.

[Mestral]

And the dad-gum link don't actually go anywhere.

[FieryPrincess]

I travel between schools in the middle of the day and I have a 20 minute trip.

Anyway, I listen to a talk show in my travels and Thursdays is all about guns. There was a lady who had called in about something called a reverse holster that she swore by. You wore it on the opposite side and it pointed backwards.

She said if more people would try it, they'd be sold on it too.

[Grammar Rules]

And the dad-gum link don't actually go anywhere.

Here, Mestral, try this:

http://www.armedinheels.com/index.php

Unless you were looking for the dunlapbelly one I posted, which was a joke. Tee hee.

[Mestral]

. . . you were looking for the dunlapbelly one I posted, which was a joke. Tee hee.I was joking right back, although I did try it. If I gain a little more weight, I might need it.

[Mestral]

I travel between schools in the middle of the day and I have a 20 minute trip.

Anyway, I listen to a talk show in my travels and Thursdays is all about guns. There was a lady who had called in about something called a reverse holster that she swore by. You wore it on the opposite side and it pointed backwards.

She said if more people would try it, they'd be sold on it too.I don't what selling point they were making, but I hear a lot about how easy it is to draw from this or that holster. Since the weapon is going to reside there, untouched for weeks on end, comfort, concealment, and the inability for the gun to fall out (or be removed by someone else) or be accidentally discharged would be priority. A slow draw from a holster on you is faster than retrieving the gun from the safe back at the house.

[sojourner truth]

Well, that holster would put a lot of reality to the statement "you could shoot your a$$ off". Or "blow your butt away".

Reminds me of Ralphie in a Christmas Story.

[mac]

are you sure that wasn't called a "cross draw" holster?.mac


I travel between schools in the middle of the day and I have a 20 minute trip.

Anyway, I listen to a talk show in my travels and Thursdays is all about guns. There was a lady who had called in about something called a reverse holster that she swore by. You wore it on the opposite side and it pointed backwards.

She said if more people would try it, they'd be sold on it too.

[Mestral]

Well, that holster would put a lot of reality to the statement "you could shoot your a$$ off". Or "blow your butt away".

Reminds me of Ralphie in a Christmas Story.
I was looking at a review of subcompact 9mm pistols, and I found there seems to be only three I would ever want to carry.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/chris-dumm/a-reader-asks-whats-a-good-9mm-subcompact/

I shot the Nano at this year’s SHOT Show, and was equally amazed by its composure under fire. It’s a little chunkier than some other subcompact 9mms, but the Nano is among the most comfortable and the easiest to shoot well. It’s also +P rated and very easy to take down and reassemble.

The Ruger LC9 has been a huge commercial success, and our testing confirms that it’s a compact and extremely reliable pistol for daily carry. Our pseudonymous reviewer is a firearms and law enforcement professional, who carries the LC9 daily as his concealed carry gun.

Smith & Wesson has recently entered the subcompact 9mm market with their 9mm Shield subcompact, and Ralph found it to be excellent: slim, comfortable, accurate and reliable. Take note: the $450 Shield and the Ruger LC9 are the only two pistols reviewed here which feature manual safeties. Some shooters want them while others abhor them, so pay attention while you decide.

The Nano has about a 9 pound trigger pull, so it is not likely to snag on something and go off, and only two others have manual safeties. I am one of those guys who wants at least one other movement to fire, something that cannot be done with my trigger finger, or some other thing getting snagged inside the trigger guard. All three of these run about $450 each, plus a lot of extra for accessories.

[Mestral]

I travel between schools in the middle of the day and I have a 20 minute trip.

Anyway, I listen to a talk show in my travels and Thursdays is all about guns. There was a lady who had called in about something called a reverse holster that she swore by. You wore it on the opposite side and it pointed backwards.

She said if more people would try it, they'd be sold on it too.


are you sure that wasn't called a "cross draw" holster?.mac
I was wondering the same thing.

[mac]

actually, i guess all shoulder holsters would be called "cross draw", least ways both of mine are. i hardly use them any more. my choice now is my little cobra and it fits very easily into any pants pocket i'm apt to wear....mac


I was wondering the same thing.

[Mestral]

actually, i guess all shoulder holsters would be called "cross draw", least ways both of mine are. i hardly use them any more. my choice now is my little cobra and it fits very easily into any pants pocket i'm apt to wear....macYeah, that is what most of the subcompacts are meant to do, but the women here have indicated (and I already know from shopping with mine) that pocket carry isn't really an option most of the time. That is where the stuff from armedinheels (http://www.armedinheels.com)would come in handy. I looked at their complete line. Looks fine for subcompact, or maybe compact pistols. Unfortunately, that means I'll probably have to get something else for my daughter. She has a cannon (think S&W 686 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Smith_Wesson_686_The_Presidents.JPG/400px-Smith_Wesson_686_The_Presidents.JPG)).

[mac]

holly cow...that must be for ranges and competitions only.....but it sure gave me a laugh for the day.....mac


Yeah, that is what most of the subcompacts are meant to do, but the women here have indicated (and I already know from shopping with mine) that pocket carry isn't really an option most of the time. That is where the stuff from armedinheels (http://www.armedinheels.com)would come in handy. I looked at their complete line. Looks fine for subcompact, or maybe compact pistols. Unfortunately, that means I'll probably have to get something else for my daughter. She has a cannon (think S&W 686 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Smith_Wesson_686_The_Presidents.JPG/400px-Smith_Wesson_686_The_Presidents.JPG)).

[Mestral]

holly cow...that must be for ranges and competitions only.....but it sure gave me a laugh for the day.....mac
It isn't the same model, but the same size, I think it is called an N frame. Her (now deceased) dad was a cop, and a big one.

[FieryPrincess]

Honestly, I wasn't paying that much attention, but I don't think it was referred to that way.

[EasyRider]

My opinion is that allowing teachers to carry weapons in schools is a very bad idea. Teachers are already too busy, too tired, too stressed, and too preoccupied having to keep up with computers, papers to grade, books, classroom supplies, etc. to be trying to keep track of a loaded weapon. I spent 21 years on active duty in the Army and I am a vet of two wars. In the army in combat zones, lost weapons, accidental discharges, and stressed, tired soldiers threatening other soldiers with weapons is a fact of life. And these events occur in professional military units despite intense military training over many years.

Teachers who have to enforce discipline in their classroom and who have to deal with angry parents should NOT be armed. How soon before a student runs home and tells mom and dad their teacher "threatened" him or her and the teacher is armed? How soon before a parent who is armed gets into a confrontation with a teacher who is armed? I am sure that if KISD teachers are armed there will be an accidental discharge of a weapon, a weapon left in the bathroom, a purse stolen with a weapon in it, a lawsuit over a child being "threatened".

I have a concealed carry license in Texas and I am an Army combat vet. I would never carry a weapon into my classroom. I believe we should be protected--teachers and students--by armed professionals. By that I mean police officers. Teachers should not have to carry weapons to school. The community must be willing to protect their children and teachers with trained police officers.

[IronErnin]

Easyrider, remember, when seconds count the police are just minutes away.
I understand your point about not wanting armed teachers, but what is there to do? No district can afford an adequate number of officers for coverage.
Shoot, $100,000 wouldn't provide enough to pay an adequate number for KISD, never mind keeping up their certifications and then factor in their continuing training.

[IronErnin]

The trained officers of which Mr LaPierre spoke represents nothing more than a best case scenario. I'm sure he would agree that carry licensed teachers is the next best thing.

[Mestral]

. . .
I have a concealed carry license in Texas and I am an Army combat vet. I would never carry a weapon into my classroom. I believe we should be protected--teachers and students--by armed professionals. By that I mean police officers. Teachers should not have to carry weapons to school. The community must be willing to protect their children and teachers with trained police officers.
After some though, I just thought I would point out that you not carrying a weapon into a classroom is fine. Telling others they cannot carry because it offends your sense of your own personal limits is not so fine. We need to get these danged "government certified defenseless" signs down off of our schools, hospitals, and churches.

[IronErnin]

The trained officers of which Mr LaPierre spoke represents nothing more than a best case scenario. I'm sure he would agree that carry licensed teachers is the next best thing.
I guess now they'll need to install "Hogan"s Alley" machines in all the schools and the teachers that carry will have to spend time on the machine to stay sharp.

[Mestral]

The trained officers of which Mr LaPierre spoke represents nothing more than a best case scenario. I'm sure he would agree that carry licensed teachers is the next best thing.Yeah, I had to rethink my position on that, remembering what we have been brainstorming on here for the last three weeks.

[EasyRider]

i just gotta add something folks. i hear a whole lotta foks on here, no one in particular, who ain't never shot and killed someone telling all of us how quick and easily they would or could shoot and kill someone. i just gotta tell you....it's not as dammed easy as you think it is. lettin' that hammer fall on your first or 2nd kill is a .....huge decision.....i spent 18 monthss as a sniper in a program called phoenix in 69 and 70and i can tell you, the first couple of shots really comes hard....the 2nd one even more so than the first one becuse then you fully and really realize what you're getin' ready to do to yoiur target...mac

I doubt Mac's claim. Phoenix was a top secret assassination program in Viet Nam executed by the CIA and US special operations forces against the Viet Cong from 1965-1972. It is my experience in the military that special forces soldiers and CIA agents do not go around bragging about killing people on public forums. There is a term we vets are familiar with. It is "stolen valor". This is when a person falsely claims to have served in the Army special forces or Navy SEALS, been awarded the Medal of Honor or Silver Star, accomplished fantastic "top-secret" military missions that usually involves killing lots of people, etc. These people bring shame and discredit on the brave soldiers who actually accomplished these actions. Real soldiers NEVER brag about killing people.

I and other vets always challenge people we suspect of "stolen valor". The web site ReportStolenValor.org is dedicated to exposing these frauds. So, Mac, would you please provide documentation of your service in either the CIA or US special operations forces in Viet Nam in 1969 and 1970? Also, would you please provide any official orders, citations, or other certified military or government documents that proves that you served in Operation Phoenix? I am also interested in seeing your Purple Heart citation for your grievous wound as well as the military medical records backing up the award. Feel free to post them on this site since you made the claim publicly in this forum. If not, I will report you to ReportStolenValor.org. If you provide the proof, I will be glad to apologize and thank you for your brave service.

If Mac does not provide the proof, I request that the admins of this site bar him forever for falsely claiming valor that belongs to real soldiers, many of whom gave their lives in service to our country.

[Grammar Rules]

EasyRider, as much as any of the frequent contributors of CTT can "know" one another without actually meeting face-to-face, I "know" mac to be consistent in his stories and trustworthy. I believe what he says, and I am personally disappointed that anyone would threaten (even by proxy) any kind of disciplinary online or real world penalties against any of our members here. Especially mac.

[Grammar Rules]

....I am personally disappointed that anyone would threaten (even by proxy) any kind of disciplinary online or real world penalties against any of our members here. Especially mac.

Clarification and disclaimer (sort of): In the interest of my own consistency, I freely admit that I have, in the past, sort of, in an irritated but somewhat lighhearted fashion, threatened to call in the ZOG and/or Black Helicopters on CenTexDave for his own veiled more-or-less threatlets (small threats) against the President. But I've never actually reported him.

[EasyRider]

EasyRider, as much as any of the frequent contributors of CTT can "know" one another without actually meeting face-to-face, I "know" mac to be consistent in his stories and trustworthy. I believe what he says, and I am personally disappointed that anyone would threaten (even by proxy) any kind of disciplinary online or real world penalties against any of our members here. Especially mac.

He made the claim. Now he should prove it. That is how this works among vets. Bragging about killing people on a public forum is a very serious thing to do. I do not know a single vet who would do such a thing. If he actually served in Operation Phoenix, he will have the documents to prove it and should have no qualms about providing them. If he is a "hero", we will all give him his just thanks.

[mac]

i agree and disagree. teachers, like every other normal law abiding American, should be allowed to carry their weapon....but should not have to..,.. mac


allowing teachers to carry weapons in schools is a very bad idea. Teachers ......should NOT be armed. .

[EasyRider]

After some though, I just thought I would point out that you not carrying a weapon into a classroom is fine. Telling others they cannot carry because it offends your sense of your own personal limits is not so fine. We need to get these danged "government certified defenseless" signs down off of our schools, hospitals, and churches.

Citizens who have a concealed handgun license have attended one day of training and have participated in one controlled "live fire" exercise which certifies they can hit a target at 25 feet. These people may have never owned or carried a weapon a day in their lives before their one day of training. In my opinion, this few hours of "training" does not qualify a person to carry a loaded weapon in a classsroom full of children. Soldiers with many years of professional experience make mistakes with weapons including losing their weapon and accidently discharging their weapon. I have personally observed as well as investigated these cases when I was an officer in the US Army.

Actual combat scenarios are confusing, terrifying and frantic. Even the most experienced police officers and soldiers have to be trained over and over in simulated combat situations to successfully respond to an actual armed attacker in situations where dozens of innocent, unarmed civilians are present. Untrained persons are almost certain to make very serious mistakes with their weapons under the stress of an actual armed confrontation.

[xzochye]

I doubt Mac's claim. Phoenix was a top secret assassination program in Viet Nam executed by the CIA and US special operations forces against the Viet Cong from 1965-1972. It is my experience in the military that special forces soldiers and CIA agents do not go around bragging about killing people on public forums. There is a term we vets are familiar with. It is "stolen valor". This is when a person falsely claims to have served in the Army special forces or Navy SEALS, been awarded the Medal of Honor or Silver Star, accomplished fantastic "top-secret" military missions that usually involves killing lots of people, etc. These people bring shame and discredit on the brave soldiers who actually accomplished these actions. Real soldiers NEVER brag about killing people.

I and other vets always challenge people we suspect of "stolen valor". The web site ReportStolenValor.org is dedicated to exposing these frauds. So, Mac, would you please provide documentation of your service in either the CIA or US special operations forces in Viet Nam in 1969 and 1970? Also, would you please provide any official orders, citations, or other certified military or government documents that proves that you served in Operation Phoenix? I am also interested in seeing your Purple Heart citation for your grievous wound as well as the military medical records backing up the award. Feel free to post them on this site since you made the claim publicly in this forum. If not, I will report you to ReportStolenValor.org. If you provide the proof, I will be glad to apologize and thank you for your brave service.

If Mac does not provide the proof, I request that the admins of this site bar him forever for falsely claiming valor that belongs to real soldiers, many of whom gave their lives in service to our country.

Mac and I very seldom see eye to eye. That being said I have never had reason to think he is lying about his military service or achievements.

Also, he has never once "bragged" about killing someone. Actually, it's quite the opposite. He has spoken about what a heavy toll it takes on the shooter.

Mac has nothing to prove to you or anyone else on here.

[Night Owl]

Citizens who have a concealed handgun license have attended one day of training and have participated in one controlled "live fire" exercise which certifies they can hit a target at 25 feet. These people may have never owned or carried a weapon a day in their lives before their one day of training. In my opinion, this few hours of "training" does not qualify a person to carry a loaded weapon in a classsroom full of children. Soldiers with many years of professional experience make mistakes with weapons including losing their weapon and accidently discharging their weapon. I have personally observed as well as investigated these cases when I was an officer in the US Army.

Actual combat scenarios are confusing, terrifying and frantic. Even the most experienced police officers and soldiers have to be trained over and over in simulated combat situations to successfully respond to an actual armed attacker in situations where dozens of innocent, unarmed civilians are present. Untrained persons are almost certain to make very serious mistakes with their weapons under the stress of an actual armed confrontation.

What are your credentials to make these statements?

[EasyRider]

Mac and I very seldom see eye to eye. That being said I have never had reason to think he is lying about his military service or achievements.

Also, he has never once "bragged" about killing someone. Actually, it's quite the opposite. He has spoken about what a heavy toll it takes on the shooter.

Mac has nothing to prove to you or anyone else on here.

Yes he does. He is claiming to be either an ex-CIA agent or an ex-special forces soldier who assassinated Viet Cong operatives in Viet Nam in 1969 and 1970 while assigned to the top secret program Operation Phoenix and was grievously wounded during that time. Any person who makes this claim on a public forum should provide the proof. There are way too many instances of "stolen valor" in our communities. I am just asking for the proof.

[EasyRider]

What are your credentials to make these statements?

I have a concealed handgun license in the state of Texas. I often carry my weapon either in my truck or on my person for self-defense and to protect my family. I am a retired US Army veteran who served in Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[mac]

i suggest and recommend you do exactly that, easy rider. i, too, can't tolerate a "wannabee"...mac


I will report you to ReportStolenValor.org. .

[EasyRider]

i suggest and recommend you do exactly that, easy rider. i, too, can't tolerate a "wannabee"...mac

Will do.

[Mestral]

I have a concealed handgun license in the state of Texas. I often carry my weapon either in my truck or on my person for self-defense and to protect my family. I am a retired US Army veteran who served in Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.Can you prove that?

As for mac, if even one witness (not eye witness, just someone who can vouch for either his involvement or injuries) can verify his story, I would suggest Rick remove you. Of course, just like you, my suggestion isn't worth a dime. It is totally Rick "and company" who will make that decision.

[Grammar Rules]

Just stop it, please. This is the KISD section, not the place for a pis...testosterone...contest.

[Rick]

I doubt Mac's claim. Phoenix was a top secret assassination program in Viet Nam executed by the CIA and US special operations forces against the Viet Cong from 1965-1972. It is my experience in the military that special forces soldiers and CIA agents do not go around bragging about killing people on public forums. There is a term we vets are familiar with. It is "stolen valor". This is when a person falsely claims to have served in the Army special forces or Navy SEALS, been awarded the Medal of Honor or Silver Star, accomplished fantastic "top-secret" military missions that usually involves killing lots of people, etc. These people bring shame and discredit on the brave soldiers who actually accomplished these actions. Real soldiers NEVER brag about killing people.

I and other vets always challenge people we suspect of "stolen valor". The web site ReportStolenValor.org is dedicated to exposing these frauds. So, Mac, would you please provide documentation of your service in either the CIA or US special operations forces in Viet Nam in 1969 and 1970? Also, would you please provide any official orders, citations, or other certified military or government documents that proves that you served in Operation Phoenix? I am also interested in seeing your Purple Heart citation for your grievous wound as well as the military medical records backing up the award. Feel free to post them on this site since you made the claim publicly in this forum. If not, I will report you to ReportStolenValor.org. If you provide the proof, I will be glad to apologize and thank you for your brave service.

If Mac does not provide the proof, I request that the admins of this site bar him forever for falsely claiming valor that belongs to real soldiers, many of whom gave their lives in service to our country.


Can you prove that?

As for mac, if even one witness (not eye witness, just someone who can vouch for either his involvement or injuries) can verify his story, I would suggest Rick remove you. Of course, just like you, my suggestion isn't worth a dime. It is totally Rick "and company" who will make that decision.
It's not a tough decision. I only ban people who violate the rules of this forum. It is not my responsibility to fact check or to enforce any laws or customs of the country.

[Rick]

Just stop it, please. This is the KISD section, not the place for a pis...testosterone...contest.
And one that you did get involved in when you kind of went to bat for mac. ;) :))

[mac]

just a couple of corrections on easyrider's post:

Phoenix was not an "assisination" program, nor was it "top secret" nor was it only executed by CIA and SOF. Not only was it not executed by those folks it wasn't even managed by them. In my case, we got our initial in-country training from sof at Chu Lai but that was it. while i was in macv my missions came to me through my CORDS Commander or his S3. While i was in the 198th LIB my missions always came to me via the S3 shop and while in the 25th from the LRRP platoon ldr. ii was never in cia or sof.....just a plain ole 113 and/or 19D with a sniper suffix.

he's correct that we do not brag about what we did....but we also do not hide what we did. we're not ashamed of it one bit.

"stolen valor" means an awful lotto me. i was very instrumental in getting a former III Cdorps CSM reprimanded for falsely claiming to be a POW in RVN. I still do not, to this day, understand how he could've fooled all those folks for such a long time....and it still rankles me.



I doubt Mac's claim. Phoenix was a top secret assassination program in Viet Nam executed by the CIA and US special operations forces against the Viet Cong from 1965-1972. It is my experience in the military that special forces soldiers and CIA agents do not go around bragging about killing people on public forums. There is a term we vets are familiar with. It is "stolen valor". This is when a person falsely claims to have served in the Army special forces or Navy SEALS, been awarded the Medal of Honor or Silver Star, accomplished fantastic "top-secret" military missions that usually involves killing lots of people, etc. These people bring shame and discredit on the brave soldiers who actually accomplished these actions. Real soldiers NEVER brag about killing people.

I and other vets always challenge people we suspect of "stolen valor". The web site ReportStolenValor.org is dedicated to exposing these frauds. So, Mac, would you please provide documentation of your service in either the CIA or US special operations forces in Viet Nam in 1969 and 1970? Also, would you please provide any official orders, citations, or other certified military or government documents that proves that you served in Operation Phoenix? I am also interested in seeing your Purple Heart citation for your grievous wound as well as the military medical records backing up the award. Feel free to post them on this site since you made the claim publicly in this forum. If not, I will report you to ReportStolenValor.org. If you provide the proof, I will be glad to apologize and thank you for your brave service.

If Mac does not provide the proof, I request that the admins of this site bar him forever for falsely claiming valor that belongs to real soldiers, many of whom gave their lives in service to our country.

[Grammar Rules]

And one that you did get involved in when you kind of went to bat for mac. ;) :))

Didn't say I wasn't involved, but I also didn't see the need to start out-gunning the other side, either. :kishug:

[Night Owl]

I have a concealed handgun license in the state of Texas. I often carry my weapon either in my truck or on my person for self-defense and to protect my family. I am a retired US Army veteran who served in Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Where are your credentials? DS AND OIF. Impressive. What MOS?

[mac]

you can NOT be a retired ....veteran....that's physically impossible. My guess is that you're retired military, and prob'ly officer...just a guess.



I have a concealed handgun license in the state of Texas. I often carry my weapon either in my truck or on my person for self-defense and to protect my family. I am a retired US Army veteran who served in Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[mac]

thank you, sir....


Will do.

[mac]

you err again, easy. just to keep the record straight, i was not wounded while workin a sniper. i was wounded on 22 feb 1968 in the ashau valley. at that point in time i was a recon platoon sgt as an E6....never an officer....mac


Yes he does. He is claiming to be either an ex-CIA agent or an ex-special forces soldier who assassinated Viet Cong operatives in Viet Nam in 1969 and 1970 while assigned to the top secret program Operation Phoenix and was grievously wounded during that time. Any person who makes this claim on a public forum should provide the proof. There are way too many instances of "stolen valor" in our communities. I am just asking for the proof.

[Scarlett]

Ok... Guess since nobody wants to back down from this pissing contest we need to move to a new thread about "Stolen valor or not".... This is ridiculous....

[CenTexDave]

I could tell ya, but would then have to kill ya!! :))

[Rick]

Ok... Guess since nobody wants to back down from this pissing contest we need to move to a new thread about "Stolen valor or not".... This is ridiculous....
I'll move the thread after I create the "Gun Talk" section.

It's not really ridiculous, someone offered his expertise on self defense and another member challenged him on his comments. It's been an interesting discussion if you ask me.

[Scarlett]

I'll move the thread after I create the "Gun Talk" section.

It's not really ridiculous, someone offered his expertise on self defense and another member challenged him on his comments. It's been an interesting discussion if you ask me.

I will clarify... It's ridiculous that it is in a KISD thread. Gun talk section is a good idea I suppose. Although this is more of a "I need to see your complete life resume" thread....

[Rick]

Um, ya, I don't know how this thread ended up in the KISD section. :not me: :wub

[Scarlett]

Um, ya, I don't know how this thread ended up in the KISD section. :not me: :wub

I THINK you know what I meant...BUT apparently you also want to get in a contest....so I will spell it out...
I MEAN how a topic saying "Hey teachers go take a free class" turned into a "Hey how about you prove you are as much of a man as me" topic."
This THREAD belonged here...it spun into a different topic...or three...altogether.

[Rick]

Wow! testy tonight aren't we?

You are the one pissing. I happen to think it's funny. It's just a topic. Not the end of the world.

Lighten the hell up. Jeesh!

[xzochye]

Uh oh.........

[sojourner truth]

Well, stolen valor is a serious problem. I used to know a couple of guys who were very involved with the issue, and understand why they do what they do. They sometimes can be a bit overzealous when their suspicions are aroused.

Most vets don't even think about the issue much, but to some it is a sore spot. I have only run into a few folks who were fakes, and it doesn't take long to figure them out. Still, there are some that would like you to produce a certified DD 214 whenever you say hello.

Most of the guys that I know who did the hairy stuff, and earned awards for their valor, are very quiet about their deeds unless they are talking to someone who was "there". A lot of guys will try to make a routine assignment sound like it was the battle of the alamo, and they personally slew hoardes of the godless enemy. That's the first tip off.

Many of us who were there just plain don't talk about it much at all. The people who ask me about it usually get the same answer.."You didn't miss anything". And you didn't.

[EasyRider]

Yes thats my point. It is weird and somewhat disturbing when some guy on a public forum suddenly starts talking about all the people he killed and how he killed them. Vets don't do that.

[siamcat]

Yes thats my point. It is weird and somewhat disturbing when some guy on a public forum suddenly starts talking about all the people he killed and how he killed them. Vets don't do that.

I was going to keep quiet, but nowhere did mac talk about how many people he killed or how he killed them.
All he said was that it's not as easy to shoot a person as some think it is and mentioned a personal experience. I have a feeling it still ways on him.
You do what you think is right, but I don't doubt mac's sincerity in this case.

[sojourner truth]

Well, I have known and posted with Mac a long time now, and I know who he is and what he was, and where he has been. It just comes as a bit of a shock when someone challenges his honesty. Probably because you don't have much background on him. Once I put 2 and 2 together, my memory kicked in and I recognized who he was, and still is.

Mac ain't one for bragging. In fact, he's pretty much silent about what he's done, except when talking to someone like me who has been in the same place (but at a different time) than he was. He won't say it, but he and his buds were in a tough place, doing some crappy work at a very dangerous time. Me, and all the other guys who sat fat dumb and happy on a firebase admired these guys, and it's hard to see them get grief. I definitely understand the skepticism, but think it is misguided this time, although well intentioned.

Hope you 2 can come to an understanding. And I say this with respect to both of you and your service.

[EasyRider]

Well, I have known and posted with Mac a long time now, and I know who he is and what he was, and where he has been. It just comes as a bit of a shock when someone challenges his honesty. Probably because you don't have much background on him. Once I put 2 and 2 together, my memory kicked in and I recognized who he was, and still is.

Mac ain't one for bragging. In fact, he's pretty much silent about what he's done, except when talking to someone like me who has been in the same place (but at a different time) than he was. He won't say it, but he and his buds were in a tough place, doing some crappy work at a very dangerous time. Me, and all the other guys who sat fat dumb and happy on a firebase admired these guys, and it's hard to see them get grief. I definitely understand the skepticism, but think it is misguided this time, although well intentioned.

Hope you 2 can come to an understanding. And I say this with respect to both of you and your service.

Thanks sojourner truth. I will take your word for it. Vets stand up for vets. As I said, I will apologize publicly and thank Mac for his service if what he said is true about being a sniper in Operation Phoenix. I have the utmost respect for Viet Nam vets. I started my military career in 1981 as a Pvt in the 45th Inf Div in the Oklahoma National Guard as an infantry soldier. All of our leadership back then, the entire chain of command including my first Co CDR, 1SG and Platoon SGT, were Viet Nam vets. I graduated from basic infantry training at Ft Benning in 1981 and all of our drill SGTs were Viet Nam vets. After I came on active duty in 1985, the Viet Nam vets slowly disappeared from the ranks as they retired honorably and we lost that valuable leadership and experience. If Mac is a Viet Nam vet and was a sniper in Op Phoenix, I salute him.

Having said all that, my opinion is that discussions of killing people are best left to discussions among vets who have indeed "been there". Civilians do not understand. Every single year in my high school classroom when I introduce myself to my students and tell them I am retired from the Army and a veteran, some kid always asks "Have you ever killed anyone?". I was speechless the first time a student asked that question but now my reply is always the same. Veterans do not normally discuss that issue except among themselves (or maybe if they are writing a book). What we will discuss is that we are proud of our service to our country. Talk about killing people on an anonymous public forum does not seem appropriate to me. I am sorry if I was wrong about Mac.

[Imagine]

And yet the conversation continues in what is still a public forum about handgun classes. So I'm throwing in my 2 cents (not worth much, but each of those coins has "In God We Trust" on them): my father is a WWII, Korea, and Vietnam veteran; I have rarely heard anything about his time in service from him except humorous stories and jokes. Once he told me about a dreadful experience in Vietnam (he was on the receiving end); he never said anything about it or other experiences again.

EasyRider and Truth are correct that stolen valor and unfounded accusations are abominable and rouse strong feelings. Gentlemen, out of respect for each other, can't you please take this into the realm of private messages.

[sojourner truth]

Sounds like a good idea. Sorry imagine, you know how I sort of say whatever is on my mind.(as you have seen from sitting behind me at the football games). A trait Mrs. Truth has despaired of, and lovingly put up with for 34 Years.

But then, she's an old retired Sergeant Major, and a retired teacher too. She's used to dealing with "problem children". :)

[Mestral]

And yet the conversation continues in what is still a public forum about handgun classes. So I'm throwing in my 2 cents (not worth much, but each of those coins has "In God We Trust" on them): my father is a WWII, Korea, and Vietnam veteran; I have rarely heard anything about his time in service from him except humorous stories and jokes. Once he told me about a dreadful experience in Vietnam (he was on the receiving end); he never said anything about it or other experiences again.

EasyRider and Truth are correct that stolen valor and unfounded accusations are abominable and rouse strong feelings. Gentlemen, out of respect for each other, can't you please take this into the realm of private messages.You are correct, but mac's intention was to warn us that if the day comes, it isn't going to be relished and in fact some may not be able to pull the trigger, knowing what it will do. The ones I know that have had to, had nightmares about it for years. (I hear some of them talk amongst themselves about the nightmares at work)

[Gimpy]

I dont know if I will carry a gun at work if it is allowed. I can say this much, I have no intention of telling any student that I would and I would not tell a whole lot of teachers either. It is need- to know information in my opinoin.

[macs]

I dont know if I will carry a gun at work if it is allowed. I can say this much, I have no intention of telling any student that I would and I would not tell a whole lot of teachers either. It is need- to know information in my opinoin.

Thank you Gimpy. That has always been my point. If we get permission, NO ONE will know if I am carrying or not. It's not your business.

[mac]

that's the beauty of it, gimpy. no one need know if you're packin' or not....they only need know that you MAY be!.....they should NOT know that you are defenseless and that everybody else in the building or on the grounds also is.....mac


I dont know if I will carry a gun at work if it is allowed. I can say this much, I have no intention of telling any student that I would and I would not tell a whole lot of teachers either. It is need- to know information in my opinoin.

[siamcat]

Lieutenant Governor David Dewhurst is asking for the Texas senate to consider multiple school safety proposals that would offer state-funded firearm training for teachers and administrators.

It's off the kxxv website.

[Mestral]

I'll be real interested when something makes it through the Assembly, and is on the governor's desk.
Until then, I will think it is all talk. This state has gone from red to purple in the last few years.

[mac]

Actually Perry is requesting it but the governor's request goes through his lt gov......it's a perry initiatifve, not a dewhurst initiative....mac


Lieutenant Governor David Dewhurst is asking for the Texas senate to consider multiple school safety proposals that would offer state-funded firearm training for teachers and administrators.

It's off the kxxv website.

[siamcat]

Actually Perry is requesting it but the governor's request goes through his lt gov......it's a perry initiatifve, not a dewhurst initiative....mac

I only quoted what the news said. Mea culpa.

[mac]

no no.....no "mea culpa" involved here. what you said is correct, i was only adding to it, not disagreeing with your post.....in this case, perry and dewhurst are in harness....as strong as our party is here in texas, it would be even more stronger and more effective if dewhurst were gone.....mac


I only quoted what the news said. Mea culpa.

[stormy]

Did anyone else see the piece on the Today show yesterday morning about this place (Big Iron CHL)? Most of the class were either teachers or district employees.

[xzochye]

Anyone know if more classes are being offered to teachers for free? I keep looking but I seem to always find them after the fact.

[Bueller]

http://kdhnews.com/news/gatesville-firm-offers-teachers-free-concealed-carry-class/article_47755502-61f1-11e2-af0e-0019bb30f31a.html