late news on ammo in Febuary

[Mestral]

I was walking through Acadamy monday and I noticed something about the ammo display. There was a great big hole in the shelf. I stopped and examined it, and they had virtually no 9mm JHP ammo.

Everything else was there, 38, 380, 357, 40SW. They seemed to have enouogh 9mm ball ammo, too.

Of course, the system used to stock modern stores hides whether the supply is sufficient, until it runs out. What we see (not only in ammo, but in food) is a facade. Displays a couple of items deep, there could be lots of depth to the stock, or what is on the shelf could be the last of its kind. They won't tell you.

Or it could just be they hadn't had time to bring it out from the back.

I was just wondering if anyone had heard any news that would explain a shortage? (Links to news are always a plus)



Just for historical purposes, some previous threads on guns and ammo:

Ammo shortage over. 2009
http://www.centextalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3984

Personal and Family home defense feb 2010
http://www.centextalk.com/vb/showthread.php?6022

Price of ammo may rise nov 2010
http://www.centextalk.com/vb/showthread.php?8899

[Ludwig]

They, for some reason keep some of the ammo behind the counter. You may want to inquire.

[Mestral]

Walked by that same counter again and noticed they have several boxes of "Speer Lawman" ammo up there, right in the middle, between where the critical defense and the supreme elite ammo would be. It is also listed in their sales flyer. That they seem to be pushing this, is a bit disconcerting.

This, I believe is their FMJ ammo (or maybe MC ammo), meant for practice. I just wonder how many people will snap it up, not understanding it isn't meant for personal defense.

Speer makes several good lines of ammo for personal defense, so I wonder why Academy seems to be pushing this (other than the pure profit motive).

Oh, yes, and I noticed they DO have quite a few boxes of 100 Winchester FMJ ammo. AFAIK, these are the best (read cheapest, reliable) target ammo they carry in the 9mm.

They also have some marked "NATO," and "Winchester" is in black, rather than red. Does anyone know what the difference is?


Note, for the untrained reading this: Full Metal Jacket or Metal Case rounds don't expand, reducing their effectiveness by about 50%, and increasing their tendency to retain enough energy after passing through their intended target to remain dangerous. They also have more tenancy to ricochet. That the US military is required (maybe), by international law, to use them, means we are "self handicapped," not that they are more effective. This is a common misconception. They are used for target practice because FMJ and MC rounds are cheap and don't "shed" lead in the barrel and on the range.

[IronErnin]

I'd say the FMJ & MC rounds should be better than the wooden bullets used in training during both WWs.

[mac]

we used wooden bullets for training during both world wars? reallly? i know we had some wooden training aid type ammo (not rifle or pistol) but didn't know that we ever actually trained with wooden ammo....in fact, that almost seems impossible to me.......but will yield to you on it.......mac (i can't help but wonder what kind of ballistics that would produce......i guess they must've been turned on a lather and made out of oak or ash......mac



I'd say the FMJ & MC rounds should be better than the wooden bullets used in training during both WWs.

[IronErnin]

It was used in Basic Rifle Marksmanship training, to save metal projectiles for combat use. Also, snipers and other advanced type shooters used metal projectiles in training. I don't know that the wooden projectiles were all that were used. They might've been used just for those that merely had to be familiar with their weapon rather than knowing it intimately enough to field strip and do a minimum cleaning in the middle of an artillery barrage.

[mac]

was the cartridge case also made out of wood......or just the bullet?.........this is fascinating to me.........mac


It was used in Basic Rifle Marksmanship training, to save metal projectiles for combat use. Also, snipers and other advanced type shooters used metal projectiles in training. I don't know that the wooden projectiles were all that were used. They might've been used just for those that merely had to be familiar with their weapon rather than knowing it intimately enough to field strip and do a minimum cleaning in the middle of an artillery barrage.

[Night Owl]

Can you post sources for this information. I have never heard of wooden bullets being used and will need proof before I will believe it.

[mac]

i'll take him at his word........mac


Can you post sources for this information. I have never heard of wooden bullets being used and will need proof before I will believe it.

[IronErnin]

Gee, just go to a museum with a decent exhibit for those wars.
Mac, the casings were brass. It is possible they might've been local reloads just to cut down on costs. But I have seen exhibits where the rounds were packaged in an oil paper box. If they were simple training aids, I doubt they would've bothered with that. BTW, I've only ever seen rifle ammo like that.

[Ludwig]

I could find no reference to us using wooden bullets. However, wooden bullets were found among both the Nazi German and Japanese forces. Units of the US 7th Infantry Division reported wooden bullets used in Japanese Arisaka rifles in Okinawa. Famous Marine Lieutenant General “Chesty” Puller reported that the Japanese used wooden bullets frequently in combat. Similarly personnel of the US 70th Infantry Division found desperate German Werwolf and Volkssturm units with pouches of wooden bullets when they crossed the Rhine in 1945. Many stories of being shot with or injured by wooded bullets however most likely came from live rounds hitting nearby trees and creating shrapnel splinters.

Read more at Suite101: Wooden Bullets Used in Peace and War: The Original Less Than Lethal Round | Suite101.com
http://christopher-eger.suite101.com/wooden-bullets-used-in-peace-and-war-a141786#ixzz1nFEq5DR7

[mac]

sheesh, the more i think about this, the more fascinating it becomes. one of my hobbies happens to be wood turning. turning a piece of wood into a circumference of 30/100s of an inch, not 29/100s and not 31/100s would be impossible for me to do......and i'm pretty darn good......in addition to that, i just don't understand how shooting a wooden bullet at any one would would hurt him.....might sting a little bit, but prob'ly not even than. this subject has got me by the short and curlies.......mac

[Night Owl]

Gee, just go to a museum with a decent exhibit for those wars.
Mac, the casings were brass. It is possible they might've been local reloads just to cut down on costs. But I have seen exhibits where the rounds were packaged in an oil paper box. If they were simple training aids, I doubt they would've bothered with that. BTW, I've only ever seen rifle ammo like that.

Still waiting on your facts. The research I did agrees with what Ludwig posted. So once again your information is BS and that is my opinion until you post some facts.

[IronErnin]

The first time I ever encountered them, there was a display at the Third Infantry Division Museum on Leighton Barracks in Wurzburg, FRG. There was an oil paper box of them, partially opened. The box was printed in English and the caliber was .30. The card in the display said they were used in training in the States. There wasn't any supplemental info that I recall. I don't even recall if the weaon for which they were packaged was the M1903 Springfield rifle or the M-1 Garand.

[Gramps]

The 03 Springfield and the M1 Garand were the same calibre and fired the same 30.06 round.

[mac]

PING!............


The 03 Springfield and the M1 Garand were the same calibre and fired the same 30.06 round.

[dawglover]

They, for some reason keep some of the ammo behind the counter. You may want to inquire.

I inquired and they are out of .45 cal Colt longs - yet again. Rats! Everyone always runs out of them. By the way, if anyone has a .45 cal automatic I have two new boxes of ammo that I can't use (hollow points). 50 round per box. Make an offer.

I'd also be willing to trade straight up for .45 Colt Longs or .410 shot rounds (but I'd need a lot more of these to make the cost equal). I'm not interested in any reloads. New bullets only. New for new, or cash only.

[dawglover]

The 03 Springfield and the M1 Garand were the same calibre and fired the same 30.06 round.

I still think the 30.06 is one of the best hunting rifles ever made.

[Mestral]

Don't forget, you heard it hear on CTT, first.

More Guns, Less Ammo: (http://www.kdhnews.com/news/story.aspx?s=64792)Area dealers report shortages, higher prices as supply tightens
Posted On: Wednesday, Mar. 7 2012 11:29 PM
By Philip Jankowski Killeen Daily Herald

Whether fueled by speculation of gun control or because of supply hoarders, some Killeen-area retailers are seeing an ammunition shortage.

"It's been busy for quite some time, but in the last month, I've noticed that when I call the distributors, there's really nothing available," Guns Galore Manager David Cheadle said.

The director of the National Rifle Association's Texas affiliate said many gun owners perceive President Barack Obama's administration as a threat to gun ownership.

"A lot of (the shortage) is driven by fears of Second Amendment rights being taken away or eroding," said Steve Hall, the association's executive director. Obama has remained mum on the subject but "he has definite known members in his Cabinet that are gun control supporters."

. . .
Jean Tran, owner of JT Sports in Copperas Cove, has seen similar price increases. She has been notified by distributors that in the coming months, prices may rise between 10 and 50 percent.

But Tran said she is not having problems filling supply orders.

[dawglover]

Don't forget, you heard it hear on CTT, first.

More Guns, Less Ammo: (http://www.kdhnews.com/news/story.aspx?s=64792)Area dealers report shortages, higher prices as supply tightens
Posted On: Wednesday, Mar. 7 2012 11:29 PM
By Philip Jankowski Killeen Daily Herald

The price on my last ammo purchase (last week) went up quite a bit. Sometimes I can't even find Colt .45 longs. I have no doubt that the reasons you posted are accurate. I use myself as an example. I didn't need more ammo but I bought it anyway for fear that it won't be available at any price in the near future. The four most important things people can own now, in order of priority, is water supplies, food supplies, fuel, guns, ammo, gold and sliver. Nothing else matters like these do. If you have everything, but not the guns and ammo, you may as well not have any of it at all because you'll need the guns and ammo to protect what you do have.

I'm sure someone will mock me for "sensationalizing," but that's fine. I would love to be wrong about this. But if I'm not, folks who don't have these things won't be making fun of me and people like me when the sh-t hits the fan. This is called survival and our families depend on us.

[xzochye]

The four most important things people can own now, in order of priority, is water supplies, food supplies, fuel, guns, ammo, gold and sliver.

You listed 7 things my dear! Sorry I couldn't resist! Lol

[Mestral]

Well, "heard it here first" isn't quite accurate, as I started this thread thinking there might be just a glitch in production, or something. I didn't really expect a general shortage.

The article isn't quite accurate, either, as the last shortage wasn't due to individuals buying up all the ammo, but rather, law enforcement increasing their weaponry.

I am in general agreement with Dawglover about the most important things to have on hand, but that would be another thread. "Preppers."

[sojourner truth]

I have tons of ammo. The supply would have to dry up a real, real long time before I ran out.

[circle_c]

Oh oh! watch out for limo's with people wearing dark glasses and long black coats :)

[dawglover]

I have tons of ammo. The supply would have to dry up a real, real long time before I ran out.

I'm sure you could hire Ludwig to guard your ammo. :)

[Mestral]

I have tons of ammo. The supply would have to dry up a real, real long time before I ran out.

I have four bullets. That should be enough for my next three annual trips to the firing range. :)
(never divulge how much you really have)

But seriously, I have been watching the market, and there isn't a real shortage right now. What I observed was a move by Academy towards products with higher profit margins.

I seem to have missed the market swings pretty consistently on ammo, and that concerns me some, so I wrote in here asking if anyone else had noticed anything.

The reason I miss the market swings is because the price of ammo is based largely on the price of electricity and, of course, somewhat on the prices of copper and lead. I have a pretty good model for predicting the price of motor fuels and for copper, but my model for predicting the price of electricity stinks.

[mac]

to whoever it was that was lookin' for .45 longs, that place in coperas cover that used to be called Brocks....and maybe still is, has got at least 12 boxes of it on hand....and prob'ly more in a basement vault.....i think that place was taken over by a retired wobbly with a german last name....eichenberg maybe....or something close to that. he may not have access to all the inventory that brock kept in his basement....mac

[Mestral]

It was Dawglover that wanted 45LC's.

The store in Cove that used to be Brocks is now JT Sports and is owned by Jean Tran.

Her picture was in the paper, front page, a couple days ago. I get to go there every couple of months, they are friendly, but always very very busy. (meaning I don't get too much time to browse or talk to them)

They look well stocked, on the surface, but I don't know what they have beyond what can be seen while standing in the middle of the store.

[mac]

hmmm, it wouldn't s'prise me none but what if this "Jean Tran" was related to old man Brock.....or married his widow....and if so would have access to all that inventory that brock had in his basement......brock was something else...i really really liked him a lot....he did not suffer fools gladly though.....do you know if his wife/widow is still living and involved with the shop?....mac


It was Dawglover that wanted 45LC's.

The store in Cove that used to be Brocks is now JT Sports and is owned by Jean Tran.

Her picture was in the paper, front page, a couple days ago. I get to go there every couple of months, they are friendly, but always very very busy. (meaning I don't get too much time to browse or talk to them)

They look well stocked, on the surface, but I don't know what they have beyond what can be seen while standing in the middle of the store.

[Mestral]

You obviously didn't see the picture in the paper :/

I don't know if she is related to "old man Brock" (he didn't seem that old to me, and I am sorry to hear that he passed.)

I only know that several months after the name of the shop changed I went there and she was running it, with what appears to be her family.

[mac]

..........now i'm startin' to think that the person you think was Brock was really this retired wobbly i was talkin' 'bout, chief eichenberg....he also has a range out behind his place out there, i think, in western coperas cove......she continued in the shop after brock died and eichenberg started runnin' the place or at least hangin' out there. brocks widow was a very smart, super smart lady of Asian extraction.....mac


You obviously didn't see the picture in the paper :/

I don't know if she is related to "old man Brock" (he didn't seem that old to me, and I am sorry to hear that he passed.)

I only know that several months after the name of the shop changed I went there and she was running it, with what appears to be her family.

[Mestral]

..........now i'm startin' to think that the person you think was Brock was really this retired wobbly i was talkin' 'bout, chief eichenberg....he also has a range out behind his place out there, i think, in western coperas cove......she continued in the shop after brock died and eichenberg started runnin' the place or at least hangin' out there. brocks widow was a very smart, super smart lady of Asian extraction.....mac

Well, some of that fits. Jean Tran is a smart young woman of Asian extraction.

[IronErnin]

There may be more than one shootin' place on the west end of Copperas Cove. But, I know that one of them is owned and run by Lloyd Leppo. He also teaches CHL classes out there.

[sojourner truth]

Just picked up 500 round bulk packs of 7.62 for the M-14, and 5.56 for the AR 15 form Cheaper Than Dirt yesterday. I have about 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 for the AK, but would rather have the AR ammo, since it's more "user friendly". I figure 500 rounds for the 45 and the .380 should be plenty. Cheaper than dirt is a great place to get bulk packs. It only takes a few days to get here, but you do have to pay Tx. state tax. Should have seen the look the UPS guy gave me when he delivered it.

[mac]

sportsman's guide is real reasonable too and no state tax....mac


Just picked up 500 round bulk packs of 7.62 for the M-14, and 5.56 for the AR 15 form Cheaper Than Dirt yesterday. I have about 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 for the AK, but would rather have the AR ammo, since it's more "user friendly". I figure 500 rounds for the 45 and the .380 should be plenty. Cheaper than dirt is a great place to get bulk packs. It only takes a few days to get here, but you do have to pay Tx. state tax. Should have seen the look the UPS guy gave me when he delivered it.

[Mestral]

Three items are enticing me to resurrect this thread.

1. Someone mentioned that ammo prices seemed to tic upwards in the wake of the SCOTUS ruling on Obamacare, but I don't know of an index for those prices. (I have already mentioned they should track with the price of coal, but I don't have a forecast model for that, other than watching the price of copper.

2. I caught a glimpse of a CNBC segment "Off the grid economic indicators" and they were in a gun store.

3. I was getting some stuff out of the pantry for the food bank (changing brands do to allergy), and a though came to me: shouldn't we have an ammo bank for those who cannot afford ammo? (Of course this one should be in the jokes section, but maybe not.)

[Ludwig]

I'm considering making guns and ammo my sole Christmas presents this year.

[sojourner truth]

Dear Santa...I would like a Thompson .45 submachine gun. I promise, I have been good, and I won't shoot my eye out. Maybe someones elses, but not mine...Sincerely..... Sojourner Truth

[Grammar Rules]

Mestral, may I submit the Ammo Pantry Volunteers would then be in the position of having to screen the applicants for worthy intentions.
Yes.
Joke section.

[sojourner truth]

Anyone whose name is Achmed, Muhammad, Mustaffa, or Pedro need not apply. Oh, Pedro can get his goodies from Obama and Holder. He doesn't need our help.

[Mestral]

I'm considering making guns and ammo my sole Christmas presents this year.Nothing near "sole" Christmas present, but I have given ammo as a gift on quite a few occasions in the past.

Having just got my allowance, I stopped by the store and picked up some supplies.

Yes, it does seem most of the ammo I looked at had gone up by a couple cents a round.

I noticed several of the makers of my size ammo are changing out older lines for newer ones. Grrr, that means I have to "feed test it." Extra cost :( I can see why many people buy ammo by the case. Less feed testing.

I also noticed JT has a boatload of 380 ammo (I can't remember what kind). Are 380's real popular lately? or do you think she has a lot cause it isn't selling?

At Academy I noticed the bulk of their stock seemed to be 40S&W and 45 (ACP, I assume but didn't notice).

[Mestral]

Probably old news, but I just ran across this. Started Yesterday, I think.
Might be better in a new thread, but I think it will be ok here.

http://www.un.org/disarmament/ATT/

From 2-27 July, all countries of the world will come together in New York to negotiate what is seen as the most important initiative ever regarding conventional arms regulation within the United Nations. A robust arms trade treaty can make a difference for millions of people confronted with insecurity, deprivation and fear.


It is pretty hard to find even handed articles on this subject (both LEFTIST and finge right articles abound) but I did find a couple good items.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/21/arms-trade-treaty-canada-john-baird_n_1371581.html

Canada did make a significant new proposal at the international conference, to exclude all hunting and sporting weapons from the agreement.

The change attracted heaps of scorn. Countries including Nigeria, Brazil, Australia and Mexico publicly opposed the suggestion.

Epps, who attended last summer's conference on his own, said the newly released documents have "confirmed that the gun lobby in Canada is having a significant impact on Canadian foreign policy."

Canada simply wants a treaty that in addition to establishing international standards for transferring arms, "respects the legal trade in arms, including the legitimate trade or use of hunting and sporting firearms," Day said.

Laverdière called Canada's new position an embarrassment.

"Canada, who was at the forefront of many international agreements for arms control, is now the country which is trying to weaken those agreements."

A final meeting to hammer out and ratify the Arms Trade Treaty is due to take place in July 2012.



http://www.netgunsmith.com/2012/05/u-n-att-arms-trade-treaty-what-is-it/

SAAMI points out some rather scary potential regulation under a proposed UN ATT or arms trade treaty, in this case those under the ISACS set:

1 Executives of gun or ammunition manufacturing companies must themselves be able to use the machinery
2 A manufacturer must be held to security clearances and keep “state secrets” or risk not being issued a continual operating license under the accord
3 Advanced scanners must be present at all borders
4 Sport shooting organizations cannot be privatized and must be state sponsored and approved
5 Serialization of small arms must be controlled by secondary unique company specific identifiers
6 ANY shipment of firearms or Ammunition could be disallowed to be shipped under loosely constructed potential theft rules
7 Transfers of all kinds are prohibited outside of closely held groups with “proper authority to initiate transfers
8 Control regulations (regulations which arbitrarily set standards for control of a specific weapon)
9 Personal life changes could be investigated by a hiring company or outside agency if the person is attempting to gain employment at an arms or ammunition manufacturer
10 Firearms for recreation are only explicitly protected if they are within the Olympics; not including sport shooting, hunting or other recreational shooting

Furthermore, this regulatory structure calls for the following:

a) Psychiatric and medical examinations, fingerprints and other background procedural checks for those involved with arms or ammunition at federal government, state government or manufacturer levels

b) Extensive and ridiculous longstanding tracking obligations by the country shipping firearms (essentially perpetual tracking requirement)

c) Firearms are NOT ALLOWED, locked or otherwise, where children are present

d) Hunting in any country is disallowed until the participant reaches the age of 18

e) Many small internal parts must be mechanically marked, even if the marking will weaken the part

f) Firearm registry records must be kept in perpetuity (forever)

g) Specific and additional licensing must be in place in order to touch a firearm without consequence

h) PURCHASES OF FIREARMS DURING TIMES OF NATIONAL OR LOCAL CONCERN ARE PROHIBITED INDEFINITELY

i) Every firearm must be marked at 5 separate stages of their lifecycle to ensure proper cataloging and tracking; this includes marking it before it is demilled/destroyed

j) EVERY INDIVIDUAL ROUND OF AMMUNITION MUST BE MARKED BY SERIALIZATION FOR TRACKING

k) Requires the individual marking of every necessary part to firearm function regardless of the size

l) Civilian firearms cannot be transferred to the government for usage, only destruction

m) The marking methods are limited in their size (4 digits and 5 digits) which begs the question: are we setting ourselves up for limitation on overall production numbers of firearms?

n) Nationalized gun registries are mandatory

o) Border control techniques are mandatory

p) All component manufacturing operations must be licensed in accordance with manufacturer standards of companies that produce full weapons

q) Manufacturer registries are mandatory

r) Metal evaluations are mandatory for those involved in manufacturing, though no specific standards are set for the inclusion into the “safe” category

s) Upon any investigation or audit, a license can be suspended or a company put out of business

t) Licensure is mandatorily renewed each year

u) All employees of an ammunition manufacturer must have the ability (by their own standards) to possess a legal firearm

v) There are criminal consequences for failing to properly mark a pin or spring

w) Labor standards must be adhered to (the UN setting those standards)

Obviously this is a set of regulations intent on making the manufacture and distribution of firearms so prohibitively costly as to effectively remove the industry. Furthermore, it seems that the use of firearms would be seriously impeded, and the potential the firearm has to protect the individual is nullified if such regulatory architecture were to be enacted on a widescale basis. Invasion by foreign powers would be incredibly difficult to perpetrate; the citizens offering little to no help to the volunteer armies protecting the citizens.

This is an agreement that the United States must eventually vote on; remember that the UN gives the U.S. a single vote against a total body of member countries standing at 193 entities. Remember 153 already voted to ratify this arms trade treaty (sometimes called the UN Small arms treaty or the UN ATT or the ISACS accord). 153 out of 193, and the United States has only a single vote in the matter.

[mac]

maybe it's that new ruger .380 semi auto they're selling. i know i almost got one....and still might......mac


Nothing near "sole" Christmas present, but I have given ammo as a gift on quite a few occasions in the past.

Having just got my allowance, I stopped by the store and picked up some supplies.

Yes, it does seem most of the ammo I looked at had gone up by a couple cents a round.

I noticed several of the makers of my size ammo are changing out older lines for newer ones. Grrr, that means I have to "feed test it." Extra cost :( I can see why many people buy ammo by the case. Less feed testing.

I also noticed JT has a boatload of 380 ammo (I can't remember what kind). Are 380's real popular lately? or do you think she has a lot cause it isn't selling?

At Academy I noticed the bulk of their stock seemed to be 40S&W and 45 (ACP, I assume but didn't notice).

[mac]

this could be real dangerous to your and my 2nd amendment rights. i've mentioned it before. the only good thing is that our congress would have to ratify it and i just doubt if they'd do that......today......remember, this is a treaty and in our country, a treaty has more authority over you than our own constitution does! there are many.who think this is obama's back door way of doin' away with our gun rights....mac


Probably old news, but I just ran across this. Started Yesterday, I think.
Might be better in a new thread, but I think it will be ok here.

http://www.un.org/disarmament/ATT/



It is pretty hard to find even handed articles on this subject (both LEFTIST and finge right articles abound) but I did find a couple good items.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/21/arms-trade-treaty-canada-john-baird_n_1371581.html




http://www.netgunsmith.com/2012/05/u-n-att-arms-trade-treaty-what-is-it/

[kantwin]

Treaties are for governments. Not for individuals.
Whether or not that holds up, I don't know, but that's my opinion.

[Mestral]

Treaties are for governments. Not for individuals.
Whether or not that holds up, I don't know, but that's my opinion.

Theoretically you are right, but in reality, many treaties affect you and I.

Here is how this might work.

They can't stop a gun maker from building a gun, but they can tell him to put a serial number on every part, including the firing pin.

They can't stop an ammo production company (well, yes, they can, but that is a different story) but they can and will make him put a serial number
on every bullet. See item "j"

[Ludwig]

Which, after reading the tea leaves, is the very reason I have invested my funds into a veritable arsenal of weapons and an ammo bunker that might put a military unit to shame. If our government is foolish enough to buy into such a treaty, then I and my family are prepared. They will have to pry out weapons from out cold, dead hands.

[Mestral]

The whole situation makes me wonder. How much ammo is it appropriate to stockpile. Up till now, my stock levels have been based on a scenario of several months severe shortage followed by some rioting and looting. If the shortage goes on for more than, say two years, I could be in a bind. So will many others.

On the other hand, if there is no shortage, I could end up with more money tied up in ammo than is prudent, given my financial situation.

The joker in the deck is that when the shortage comes, the first sign most people will have is the store shelf will be empty. (It won't be gradual)

[Grammar Rules]

Which, after reading the tea leaves, is the very reason I have invested my funds into a veritable arsenal of weapons and an ammo bunker that might put a military unit to shame. If our government is foolish enough to buy into such a treaty, then I and my family are prepared. They will have to pry out weapons from out cold, dead hands.

This fear mongering is working very, very well for the NRA and the gun industry/lobby (but I repeat
myself). If Obama is defeated, they've solidified their huge power over the voters' fears and those of Congress. If he is reelected, they'll spend the next 3 years 11 months crying "wolf" and selling more membership and product.

Win-win.

[sojourner truth]

The fear mongering is pretty easy to exploit when you have a president who just makes law without any pretense of propriety or proceedure with impunity. Evidently, there is no force in the land who can tell him no when he has made up his mind to enact some point of his agenda at will without any constraint. Can you blame people who love liberty for being extra cautious? I don't. There is a gun show this weekend at the expo center and I plan on stocking extra ammo and maybe another weapon or 2. I'm not an NRA member, so I can't really say which mystical force has hypnotized me into going. When it comes to Obama and our freedom, we have good reason to be afraid.

[Mestral]

Depending on what happens with the UN, ammo shortages could begin to show up before the election, if a lot of people begin to stock up.

[Mestral]

It is still completely anecdotal, but I am beginning to see quite a few "out of stock" notices on "ammotogo" and "cheaperthandirt." Now I am beginning to wonder if the "preppers" are moving ahead of the end of the UN conference. There is another possibility, though. As with the previous shortage, that coincided with Obama becoming President, the shortage could be because of a huge Homeland Security contract that was let some months ago, that was so big as to essentially take one manufacture out of the normal market.

[mac]

you are correct....and when youy throw in his propensity to toss around executive orders it get's even worse. who know's what executive order he may sign before tomorrow morning?....mac


The fear mongering is pretty easy to exploit when you have a president who just makes law without any pretense of propriety or proceedure with impunity. Evidently, there is no force in the land who can tell him no when he has made up his mind to enact some point of his agenda at will without any constraint. Can you blame people who love liberty for being extra cautious? I don't. There is a gun show this weekend at the expo center and I plan on stocking extra ammo and maybe another weapon or 2. I'm not an NRA member, so I can't really say which mystical force has hypnotized me into going. When it comes to Obama and our freedom, we have good reason to be afraid.

[Mestral]

"I just want you to know that we are working on it. We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar."
Barak Obama to Sarah Brady regarding gun control. Jason Horowitz, Washington Post, April 11th, 2011

"This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility." Barak Obama to Dmitri Medvedev, March 26, 2012

[Mestral]

I went to JT's and Academy in the past week. I get the distinct impression JT's doesn't want to specialize in home defense ammo, but rather in hunting and collectables.

Academy's ammo shelves are getting a little thin, and have some holes developing in their inventory. I suspect they are having some problem keeping up with the demand.

[sojourner truth]

Couple of media blurbs this morning said the demand for guns and ammo skyrocketed yesterday. Mostly because people feel a sudden need to defend themselves, and the other stated reason was out of fear of a knee jerk gun control measure. Sure enough, the butt covering politicians all came out from under the rocks and started demanding the president do something today. Towers of jello. What do they think outlawing guns will do. Do they actually think all guns will just evaporate, or that people will turn them in? I think not...

[Grammar Rules]

I heard on MSNBC that there are 300,000,000 firearms in the US. That's enough for one for each adult in the country with plenty left over.

Oops, I said "enough." Sorry. That's one for each adult with plenty left over.

[Mestral]

[QUOTE=sojourner truth;226119 . . ., the butt covering politicians all came out from under the rocks and started demanding the president do something today. Towers of jello. . . . [/QUOTE]
Does anyone know the status of the Arms Treaty at the UN, or what Hillary and company has been doing related to that? Or have they been successful at keeping it all "under the radar?"

[Mestral]

Ammo Storage.

I have been hearing people on other forums talk about ammo storage, and almost all of them discuss oxygen and humidity free packing techniques. While in the past this has only been an amusement to me, I have begun to wonder. My own ammo is stored in the original, non air tight, cardboard and plastic box that it was sold in. About how many years do you guys think that is good for. (Air conditioned home assumed)

[Mestral]

Does anyone know the status of the Arms Treaty at the UN, or what Hillary and company has been doing related to that? Or have they been successful at keeping it all "under the radar?"
Some News:http://www.ammoland.com/2012/07/27/un-gun-ban-conference-drawing-to-a-close-today

Washington, DC --(Ammoland.com)- The United Nations’ month-long talks on the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) are drawing to a close today, Friday July 27th 2012.

And though there’s still no consensus among negotiators, the latest draft document reveals a treaty that could have serious implications for your Second Amendment rights.

President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton already indicated that the U.S. will sign the treaty and send it to the Senate for ratification.

The treaty itself covers trade in weapons ranging from battle tanks and battleships, to small arms and light weapons (e.g., your gun collection).

Read more at Ammoland.com: http://www.ammoland.com/2012/07/27/un-gun-ban-conference-drawing-to-a-close-today/#ixzz21rKJmHpf

[Mestral]

Well, they claim the UN could not reach agreement, and blamed it on the US needing more time to review the treaty. But not too long ago, they said the release date for the final product would be secret. Hmmmm. I still smell a rat, but then I have held jobs and have hobbies where I am paid to be skeptical and suspicious.

I wonder why I didn't get an answer on how many years ammo should be good if simply kept in store shelf boxes, in a cabinet, in an air conditioned home. Well since I didn't get an answer, it sounds like a good project for me to research, and I'll post my findings here.

[sojourner truth]

Probably because none of us knows the answer. If the treaty needs senate ratification, I doubt if it will happen. The senate may have a Dem majority, but even they are not that stupid....I think.

[Mestral]

Well, the treaty is shelved for a few weeks, at least. Remember, HillaryCare is now a reality, and much of Cap and Tax has been implemented under EPA "regulatory powers."

As for ammo storage: I have been concerned with the subject of ammo storage since my tour of Merrimack (I think, one cave is a lot like another) Caverns. There, during the Civil War they had a power stockpile self ignite in a back room of the cave. Twice. From moisture.

I didn't really find any authoritative articles, but some anecdotal information from shooters who have stored ammo for more years than I have left.


10 years sitting in a garage
"I've got ammo from the mid 90 that got pretty hot in a garage for a few years that still shhots fine."
(gunslinger October 4, 2009, 09:21 PM) (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-478589.html)


Stored in non AC home in Virginia
"ammo stored in the original cardboard box in a bedroom closet in a house with no AC in humid Virginia will easily last 20 or 30 years or more with no deterioration that I could tell"
(JohnBT October 6, 2009, 08:38 AM) (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-478589.html)


Oh, yes, and those of us who understand condensation will tell you "don't store it in contact with the floor. Keep a pallet, or at least a row of wooden stakes (I use left over pieces of lumber, just so there is some air space), between anything moisture sensitive and the floor.


Where not to store it. Document fire safes are a no no.
"The storage box is not an ammo box, it is a repurposed document firesafe."
"The fireproof (non gun) safes are also lined with wet concrete to aid in fire suppression."
Corroded Ammo (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/137650-corroded-ammo-what-did-i-do-wrong.html)


The one commercial or official publication I found was mainly concerned with safety of storage and transport.
Ammo Storage (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_202-Sporting_Ammunition.pdf)

[Ludwig]

To ensure good ammo even if stored in less than ideal evironments, use a vacuum-pack system. About all you have to worry about then is having the ammo exposed to direct sunlight since that will break down the plastic bag over time.

[Mestral]

To ensure good ammo even if stored in less than ideal evironments, use a vacuum-pack system. About all you have to worry about then is having the ammo exposed to direct sunlight since that will break down the plastic bag over time.
There seems to be a lot of agreement with this, in cases where ammo is cached (anyone who doesn't know what that means doesn't need to worry about it), but for ammo stored in the home, it can just be stacked on a shelf in a closet, as long as the AC works and the roof don't leak.

BTW, ammo prices seem to have dropped (about 10-20%) in the last couple days. Standing down from the threat, just a little.

[sojourner truth]

Yeppers...Mine is stored in a closet in an air conditioned house. I got about 500 rounds of each caliber the other day, and it was cheaper. The only problem is that I usually get mine from Cheaper than dirt, and it is in Texas, so I have to pay sales tax on it. Just so you know, the latest "get your money" scam from Obama is going to be taxing all internet sales. It's in the works. Most of my ammo is military stuff, and comes in the standard army containers which ensure long life. The 7.62 for my M1A is in the OD green plastic sealed containers, so I know that is good. Same with the AK ammo. The pistol ammo is another story.

[IronErnin]

Explosives built into aircraft (Ohkas), stored in open front shelters since '45 were set off by tremors under magnitude 3 Richters in '82-3.

[Mestral]

Yeppers...Mine is stored in a closet in an air conditioned house. I got about 500 rounds of each caliber the other day, and it was cheaper. The only problem is that I usually get mine from Cheaper than dirt, and it is in Texas, so I have to pay sales tax on it. Just so you know, the latest "get your money" scam from Obama is going to be taxing all internet sales. It's in the works. Most of my ammo is military stuff, and comes in the standard army containers which ensure long life. The 7.62 for my M1A is in the OD green plastic sealed containers, so I know that is good. Same with the AK ammo. The pistol ammo is another story.This may be drifting off into the area of taxes, but taxing all internet sales could be a good thing, if done right. And done right means the feds don't get a cut of it. One of the problems with Internet commerce has always been that internet sales undermine local businesses that support local infrastructure and schools. This could partially correct that, if the feds don't get their greedy hands on part of the pie.

[IronErnin]

That would be the rub. Since most internet commerce is interstate AND international, I'd guess the feds are gonna be up to their grubby elbows in THAT slop trough.

[Mestral]

That would be the rub. Since most internet commerce is interstate AND international, I'd guess the feds are gonna be up to their grubby elbows in THAT slop trough.Yes, that could be a problem.

[sojourner truth]

The supreme court actually got into the internet sales thing and ruled that states (and that means states only) could collect taxes for sales made within the state to parties inside the state. The taxes were not legal on purchases made by out of state buyers. There is an ammendment in the works, and the feds are trying to get a cut of the sales taxes as well. Not going to happen. But sales of weapons and amo has increased a bunch. every time Holder and his boys come out making more anti 2nd amendment noises, the more Americans scarf up weapons and ammo. I actually wonder if he's on the NRA's payroll sometimes. He sure is good for business. I know the Mexican drug cartels love him.

[Mestral]

There seems to be a lot of agreement with this, in cases where ammo is cached (anyone who doesn't know what that means doesn't need to worry about it), but for ammo stored in the home, it can just be stacked on a shelf in a closet, as long as the AC works and the roof don't leak.

BTW, ammo prices seem to have dropped (about 10-20%) in the last couple days. Standing down from the threat, just a little.

Well, the threat came back with a vengeance, so I decided to resurrect this thread ( I would have started a new one, but there is some good info on storage and such, a few messages up the ladder).

The current situation is that stocks are pretty much "picked over" and I would expect ammo to double in price when it returns to the shelves.

Went to Academy, and if you're not picky, there is a little still on the shelf of almost every caliber.

Went to CheaperThanDirt and checked 9mm. Sorted by "price per round" and the first 386 catalog entries (out of 500 and some) were "out of stock." Looked at their "bulk handgun" sales, and there was some 38 special (not +P). And a box of 40S&W, I think. All other, gone.

I think we can safely call this a shortage. :)

[sojourner truth]

Almost every ammo store on line is either back ordered or sold out of 223, 5.56, 7.62x39, 45, an 9mm. I can still get 7.62x51 for my M1A, but not in bulk. 308 will work as well in the M1A, but is not available in bulk either.

[Mestral]

Hunting rounds, 7.62x54R and 270Win are both about halfway out of stock.
Also 30-30 and 25-06 about half out.

If anyone wants 9mm +P+ or 38+P+ (a light 357) round, you might try Buffalo Bore. As an off brand, they might not have had the "run on the Bank" experience that the main stream guys did. They specialize in extra hot personal defense loads.

[sojourner truth]

I did notice on thing still in stock....223 tracer in bulk. Wow, that just sounds like a bad idea.:))

[Mestral]

I did notice on thing still in stock....223 tracer in bulk. Wow, that just sounds like a bad idea.:))

Ummm, isn't that one of those items you have to have a special permission (aka, license or permit) from the government to buy?
But even if it isn't, my experience (don't ask on line) is that firing large quantities of tracer, in addition to being a fire hazard down range, is really hard on the weapon (some of the old stuff was corrosive for instance).

If it is available for civilian use without special permission, a half-dozen people could split up case. An old trick is to put two tracers at the bottom of each magazine to let the shooter know when to change mags.

[sojourner truth]

Nope, it's not illegal. Just not good for the gun. Plus, it not only lets you know where you are shooting, it lets the other guy know where you are shooting from.

I just never liked cleaning a weapon after shooting the stuff.

If Obama and Feinstein get their way, it's a moot point. We won't have to count higher than 10.

[Mestral]

I went to a gun store in a nearby small town, and they have some ammo left of just about every pistol caliber I could think of while I was looking over their stocks, so if anybody is just a little desperate, send me a private message and I'll let you know where. This has been a lesson in being prepared, since those who waited until after Obama precipitated the disaster, are going to have a hard time getting needed hardware and supplies.

[Rick]

Anyon eknow what's up with Walmart? I went in this morning and their locked ammo cabinet was completely empty.

[Mestral]

Anyon eknow what's up with Walmart? I went in this morning and their locked ammo cabinet was completely empty. Sold out, like everyone else, I suspect. The rifle I went to the store to buy was back-ordered to the point where the manufacture is rationing them to the dealers.

[Mestral]

Well, this morning it looks like some manufactures may be pulling stocks from overseas and beginning to sell them here. I noticed Fiocci 9mm is beginning to be restocked. Note to those who carry subcompacts, though, if it says 124 grains and 1100 fps or more, only shoot it if your gun is rated for +P. Fiocci is well known for living at the hot end of the spectrum. Oh, and even better news, I don't seen any serious price increase yet.

[Mestral]

Got a report that 9mm ball ammo is available in the area.
My source told me that both Academy and Wall-Mart get resupplied every Tuesday.
(PS. I plan to keep posting updates on the local situation here, every week or so, unless the Admin tells me otherwise)

[kantwin]

I picked up a box of 250 9mm ball (Remington) at the Ft Rucker PX for just over $74.00 earlier this week.
Their supply of those boxes didn't last the day.

[Rick]

(PS. I plan to keep posting updates on the local situation here, every week or so, unless the Admin tells me otherwise)

Heck no, keep posting.

I got 500 rounds of 9mm the other day. 300 from the PX and 200 from Academy in Temple. Total spent was $130.

[sojourner truth]

I got an order in to Sportsmans guide about a week ago because they still showed ammo in stock on the web site. I ordered 3 mags for my AK, M1A, and Car 15...the ordertook, but then they sent me a message that they wouldn't be coming and are "back ordered". so the magazine issue is still a problem. I ordered 500 rounds of 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39 for the AK. They said they were outof the 500 rounds bulk ammo, and are sending me a 260 round supply instead. They are out of any magazines now. Even 10 and 20 round magazines. Ridiculous.

Academy had some 45 and 380 the other day. I got a few boxes of each just to add to my already huge supply.

Of course, the cancellation notices come about once a day, so I won't be surprised if the ammo doesn't make it either.

Guess it's a good thing I have plenty already. But it sure makes me stingy when it comes to going to the range. Guess I'll just take the MP 15-22...Seems to be no problem with 22 long rifle yet.

[Dagobert II]

The cynic in me says that in a few months this will all vanish down the sewer of history like Occupy Wall Street (remember that?) and there will be all the ammunition anyone wants and plenty of AK's and Glock 18's and M-16's and M203's all delivered to our doors along with our Obama phones and government cheese.

[sojourner truth]

I s'pect you are correct, as I heard people ordering their AR 15s the other day. Right now, the gun shops and on line stores are making out like bandits milking desperate people. I'd say $65 for a Tapco 30 round AR 15 mag was a bit of scalping. Especially since you could get them for $8.99 a month ago.

But, I saw people shucking out the money faster that the eye could follow. Once this blows over, there will be alot of people who didn't stock up earlier kicking themselves in the pants.

I mean, unless they ban the ammo itself, the manufacturing supply will catch up. I'd bet stock in AR 15 manufacturing co.s is off the roof right now.

Maybe this was one of Obamas ways of stimulating the economy? Not....

[Ludwig]

A friend of mine (yes, I do have a couple of them) could not find a single box of 22 Long Rifle in the shelves in Academy or Wal*Mart. Pretty sad.

[Mestral]

The cynic in me says that in a few months this will all vanish down the sewer of history like Occupy Wall Street (remember that?) and there will be all the ammunition anyone wants and plenty of AK's and Glock 18's and M-16's and M203's all delivered to our doors along with our Obama phones and government cheese.I don't think it's the cynic in you, but rather, the optimist. The real fight over 2nd amendment rights hasn't begun yet. This has all been saber rattling.

I wrote three more paragraphs, but I cut them because they belong in politics. I'll post them there (http://www.centextalk.com/vb/showthread.php?17355-New-Gun-Legislation&p=248522#post248522). Not here.

[sojourner truth]

A friend of mine (yes, I do have a couple of them) could not find a single box of 22 Long Rifle in the shelves in Academy or Wal*Mart. Pretty sad.

It's out there, but you have to really look. I have tons of it, but am finding it hard to get magazines for my MP 15-22. I have a couple of 45 round mags and a couple of 30 round mags for it, and consider the rifle a very weak backup for the reguilar armory. It is good for going to the range with as the ammo is cheap, and usually plentiful. Walmart had some this morning, but only a few boxes of the expensive stuff.

It's still available on line, but it doesn't do me any good unless I have the magazines to load. I don't like wasting time at the range loading mags to zero or shoot. The MP 15-22 is better than nothing when you need a weapon. probably better than the .380.

[Mestral]

It's out there, but you have to really look. I have tons of it, but am finding it hard to get magazines for my MP 15-22. I have a couple of 45 round mags and a couple of 30 round mags for it, and consider the rifle a very weak backup for the reguilar armory. It is good for going to the range with as the ammo is cheap, and usually plentiful. Walmart had some this morning, but only a few boxes of the expensive stuff.

It's still available on line, but it doesn't do me any good unless I have the magazines to load. I don't like wasting time at the range loading mags to zero or shoot. The MP 15-22 is better than nothing when you need a weapon. probably better than the .380.Conserve your magazines as much as you conserve your ammo. Both are likely to be in short supply in the future. It looks like we will need alternate means of keeping proficient in the future. Probably a good idea to start another thread (although the subject has been thoroughly wrung out on other forums and blogs).

[sojourner truth]

Shoot, I just checked on line for 22 long rifle ammo, and IT"S all gone too. Along with MP 15-22 magazines.

What has happened is that sly enterpreneus have bought up everything they could on line, and are now aelling the stuff at scalper prices on Ebay.

[Grammar Rules]

When the government succeeds in banning all guns except muskets, (you know, pure original intent and all) and they finish going house-to-house and confiscating our weapons, y'all need to know that the limestone banks of the creek-sides throughout Central Texas hold some comfort. There are hollows drilled into the limestone where the settlers reportedly were able to mold their slugs. So don't despair.

[kantwin]

When the government succeeds in banning all guns except muskets, (you know, pure original intent and all) and they finish going house-to-house and confiscating our weapons, y'all need to know that the limestone banks of the creek-sides throughout Central Texas hold some comfort. There are hollows drilled into the limestone where the settlers reportedly were able to mold their slugs. So don't despair.

Original intent is a weak argument. The framers never envisioned the Internet or TV either, so all those loudmouth broadcasters and bloggers have no 1st amendment rights either, correct?

3248

[Grammar Rules]

Exactly! They can shout from the mountain tops. Anyone who wants to listen can use an ear trumpet. :doh

[Mestral]

When the government succeeds in banning all guns except muskets, (you know, pure original intent and all) and they finish going house-to-house and confiscating our weapons, y'all need to know that the limestone banks of the creek-sides throughout Central Texas hold some comfort. There are hollows drilled into the limestone where the settlers reportedly were able to mold their slugs. So don't despair.Shhhhh. Don't be tellin' our secrets.

[mac]

i got 2 cartons of .22 LR and 2 cartons of .22 mag some time saturday. what bothers me, kind of, is that they just left it outside the door but i'm pretty sure one of us was home maybe it wasn't upsd or fedex, maybe it was that other outfit.....can't think of their name right now...this is the ammo i use at the rod and gun when the grand kids are here and they're open....win 1922 and a 1922M....also the first gun i ever owned, a j c stevens crackshot 26.....now that right there is old.....older than me! tons of fun....mac


A friend of mine (yes, I do have a couple of them) could not find a single box of 22 Long Rifle in the shelves in Academy or Wal*Mart. Pretty sad.

[Mestral]

I ordered a case of 12ga buckshot and UPS left it the same way. Of course that is how they leave all of it, and this wasn't visibly marked as ammo on the outside. (Made a lot of people happy at Christmas, just one of about three things I gave to everyone)

[sojourner truth]

Yep...They left 2,000 rounds of 7.62x39 and 1,000 rounds of .223 on my doorstep..And I was home too.

There are optionson most sites for a secure delivery. The worst that can happen is that you will have to take a trip to Belton to pick up your ammo.

[Mestral]

I stopped by Wal-Mart in Cove today, and they had some ammo.
38+P - 9mm - 45ACP (all defense rounds, I think).
Also a bulk pack of UMC 40S&W (ball ammo, I think).
Small quantities of some various rifle and bird shot shells.

I have heard they get their resupply on Tuesdays, which would mean these boxes survived the weekend.

Oh, yeah, I should ask, is there any particular ammo anyone wants me to keep an eye out for?

[sojourner truth]

Yeah...any 223/5.56, or 7.62 x39 or 7.62 NATO. But i wouldn't hold my breath. I have some on order from Sportsmans Guide, and they had it in stock. 2 days later they emailed me back and said it wasn't really in stock, so now it is back ordered till 6 Feb. Same for my spare magazines and ammo boxes.

Seems all you can find is pistol ammo any more, and I have plenty of that. Except for .22 long rifle, which has also dissapeared.

[Mestral]

Yeah...any 223/5.56, or 7.62 x39 or 7.62 NATO. But i wouldn't hold my breath. I have some on order from Sportsmans Guide, and they had it in stock. 2 days later they emailed me back and said it wasn't really in stock, so now it is back ordered till 6 Feb. Same for my spare magazines and ammo boxes.

Seems all you can find is pistol ammo any more, and I have plenty of that. Except for .22 long rifle, which has also dissapeared.OK, I'll keep an eye out, for what it's worth. I did see some .22 on the shelf at Wal-Mart, didn't really think about it, since I don't think we'll ever have a sustained shortage of it. I didn't look to see what kind.

[sojourner truth]

I have to use Federal, as Remington or most other brands have a lot of feeding problems in my MP 15-22. Federal is the only brand that shoots well out of th thing. I believe federal is Walmarts store brand.

[Mestral]

I have to use Federal, as Remington or most other brands have a lot of feeding problems in my MP 15-22. Federal is the only brand that shoots well out of th thing. I believe federal is Walmarts store brand.It may be their chosen brand, but Federal has been around longer than Wal-Mart. At least it was around my home town long before Wal-Mart built a store there. Of course, they may have bought Federal.

[Mestral]

Yeah...any 223/5.56, or 7.62 x39 or 7.62 NATO. But i wouldn't hold my breath. . .
Small quantities of 7.62x39 are on CheaperThanDirt and AmmunitionDepot, but in both cases it runs .90 a round. As I recall, that is about double the normal price.

[Dagobert II]

Walmart in Killeen actually had several boxes of Serbian 9mm in stock yesterday that had survived the weekend. It wasn't as cheap as the Russian stuff I got at Academy last week, but it was available. In the meantime, I may have found a new hobby, collection of old Warsaw Pact ammunition cans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeDZi1EMpGY

[sojourner truth]

Don't believe any online store if they tell you they have something in stock. Cheaper than dirt had the 7.62x39 listed as "in stock" until you actually try to order it, then they tell you it really isn't, and they don't expect more until March sometime...maybe.

I bought a bunch of 223/5.56x45, 7.62x39, magazines and 22 long rifle from Sportsmans guide about 3 weeks ago. They were all listed as in stock and ready to ship. A week later they sent messages that the ammo wasn't available, soldout, and was now back ordered. The new estimated supply date is Feb. 6 for the ammo, and August for the magazines.

Then I get a notice yesterday that said that the factory has raised their prices, and that when the ammo does come in I may have to pay more than the price I was quoted when I bought it. These guys are beginning to piss me off. Everyone in the chain is turning into sharks, as they smell the opportunity to make a killing.

Cabellas did the same thing on some 22 long rifle. They listed it as "in stock" and then changed their mind just after you send them the credit card payment. Caveat emptor folks.

[Dagobert II]

We need to remember the scalpers because this too shall pass and I strongly suspect that ammo will again become readily available, especially as many of us reach the saturation point on what our spouses will allow us to pile up in the guest bedroom.

[sojourner truth]

Yep, that's what's happening. As soon as the stuff is available, the scalpers are scooping it all up and then selling it on Ebay for a tidy outrageous profit. Same for magazines.

The only real way to ensure you get some is to order it, have it goon back order, then just wait until the supplier gets it in. At least you are on a waiting list. It remains to be seen how much my already purchased ammo will increase in price once the outlet gets it. Obama has definitely curbed the guns and ammo business. So much so that the shelves are empty and everyone has backordered the stuff.

That really solved the problem, didn't it. Well, at least maybe the business stimulation problem a bit.

[Mestral]

Walmart in Killeen actually had several boxes of Serbian 9mm in stock yesterday that had survived the weekend. It wasn't as cheap as the Russian stuff I got at Academy last week, but it was available. In the meantime, I may have found a new hobby, collection of old Warsaw Pact ammunition cans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeDZi1EMpGY

Are those reusable?

[Dagobert II]

Are those reusable?
No. They have to be opened with a giant can opener - which is included - but they'll keep the ammo good practically forever.

[Mestral]

No. They have to be opened with a giant can opener - which is included - but they'll keep the ammo good practically forever.OK, that is what I thought, but he said he was collecting the cans, not what was in them. :) My mistake :)

I just came across something good, maybe, coming out of all of this.

Nationwide ammo shortage so severe that even cops can’t buy bullets (http://preppercentral.com/?p=3362); ammo rationing imminent.

Hopefully, now the cops will realize that, as has always been the truth, they depend on us to keep them safe. Not the other way around.

[IronErnin]

Now, that's an idea. Stock up on ammo and let the chief know that you'll part with some at a fair price when the department needsw it. ;)

[Mestral]

Now, that's an idea. Stock up on ammo and let the chief know that you'll part with some at a fair price when the department needsw it. ;)No. I was thinking more along the line of "you pack the badge, we'll pack the heat."

[sojourner truth]

That's part of the reason I am holding off from going to the range. Once the world gets back to normal, I'll go back. I was going to go out and play with the MP 15-22, but even getting that is impossible. It's just crazy. 22 long rifle should be easy to make and stock.

Makes me wonder why the ammo manufacturers are so slow on the production line. If it was me, I'd have the plant running 24/7.

Same for the weapons manufacturers. I know they are still making them, because they are giving the dealers delivery dates. heck of a thing when supply can't keep up with demand. They could be making a fortune right now.

[Mestral]

I saw 45 Colt at Wal-Mart this morning, along with some 40S&W defense ammo.
Everything was in quantities of two or three boxes per caliber.
The case was still mostly stocked with was empty shelf space.

Makes me glad I got at least 4 bullets.
(for next three annual trips to the range and one for home defense)

[mac]

they got lots of .22 LR in gunbroker.com, sojourner. they're selln' it by the bucket. if you haven't seen there site, it's a good place to visit anyway.....mac


That's part of the reason I am holding off from going to the range. Once the world gets back to normal, I'll go back. I was going to go out and play with the MP 15-22, but even getting that is impossible. It's just crazy. 22 long rifle should be easy to make and stock.

Makes me wonder why the ammo manufacturers are so slow on the production line. If it was me, I'd have the plant running 24/7.

Same for the weapons manufacturers. I know they are still making them, because they are giving the dealers delivery dates. heck of a thing when supply can't keep up with demand. They could be making a fortune right now.

[Mestral]

they got lots of .22 LR in gunbroker.com, sojourner. they're selln' it by the bucket. if you haven't seen there site, it's a good place to visit anyway.....mac

Just checked the site. Yes the have it. Three or four times last year's price, but they have it.
I guess double or more is going to be the new norm.

[sojourner truth]

Just got an update from Sportsmans guide...They finally shipped my 3 AK mags, and show that the AR 15 mags arent expected to ship until March sometime. The 7.62x39 is shipping in Feb, and the 223 isn't available until June. Wow.

I got some 22 long rifle on order through Cabellas, but it isn't due until Feb sometime. And it was $25 for 500 rounds...normally $15 at Walmart. I have plenty of 45, and noticed that they had some at Academy the other day.

Think I'm going to check out a lever action in 45-70 govt. That should stop a squirrel.:) I'd like to get a Henry in 44 mag., but they can't be found. I did notice when I looked them up that they do have a history of feeding problems that many customers of Henry arms are a bit peeved about though.

[Mestral]

AmmoToGo.com has some 7.62x39, and the price isn't too bad.
They seem to have one box of 5.56 - frangible.

[mac]

gurarntee you, sojourner, that you're gonna just love your .45-70. it may very well be my favorite rifle in the rack.....although i do love my 700 BDL 243 also...i even use it instead of the .25-06.....you're gonna love that 405 grains goin' down range. it just has a feel good aura about it...mac


Just got an update from Sportsmans guide...They finally shipped my 3 AK mags, and show that the AR 15 mags arent expected to ship until March sometime. The 7.62x39 is shipping in Feb, and the 223 isn't available until June. Wow.

I got some 22 long rifle on order through Cabellas, but it isn't due until Feb sometime. And it was $25 for 500 rounds...normally $15 at Walmart. I have plenty of 45, and noticed that they had some at Academy the other day.

Think I'm going to check out a lever action in 45-70 govt. That should stop a squirrel.:) I'd like to get a Henry in 44 mag., but they can't be found. I did notice when I looked them up that they do have a history of feeding problems that many customers of Henry arms are a bit peeved about though.

[sojourner truth]

I was also noticing that there is still a ton of 243 on the shelf. Never fired any of that, and I'm not sure of its capabilities. I have always thought it was designed for ladies or young shooters. Since there is so much ammo available for it, I assume there isn't much demand.

The only thing about 45-70 is that it is pretty expensive. I am waiting for a weapon price quote now, and the only brand available is Rossi, and I'm not so sure about that brand. Just seems wrong to have an Italian lever action rifle....I did see that there are some lever action rifles on DiFis list of proposed banned rifles. Evidently, anything with a trigger is fair game.

[Mestral]

I have some friends who are long time hunters, and they say the 243 is good on anything up to a medium sized deer (what you would tend to find in TX, not in the cornfields of IL). Despite saying the cartridge is sufficient, most of them use a heavier one, themselves. 270 and 30-30 are in the top ten most common cartridges, and IIRC, 243 is in the next ten, but these are generally hunting rounds, not too many defense rifles (note the preferred nomenclature) chamber them.

[Rick]

Think I'm going to check out a lever action in 45-70 govt. That should stop a squirrel.:) I'd like to get a Henry in 44 mag., but they can't be found. I did notice when I looked them up that they do have a history of feeding problems that many customers of Henry arms are a bit peeved about though.

Those people who are unhappy should contact the company and let them fix it. I got mine back ten days after I shipped it to them and it feeds the 44 Magnum rounds perfectly now. The 44 Special rounds not so well, but I don't like those now that I tried them anyway.

We need to get you out here to try it.

[Rick]

Here's how it looks in the case above the mantle.

3274

[sojourner truth]

Hey, I actually got 3 new 30 round mags for my AK in the mail today. Wonder how much those will be worth this time next year?

[Night Owl]

Scalper!:)):))

[Mestral]

Hey, I actually got 3 new 30 round mags for my AK in the mail today. Wonder how much those will be worth this time next year?Might depend on who you know in the black market. Might be against some unconstitutional law to sell or transfer them. More good news, there are one or two of the carbine rifle I want showing up on the market. Maybe I can get one. Hi-Point makes them, and they have refused to gouge their customers as the market panicked, just making as many as they can.

[sojourner truth]

Getting guns is still iffy, but they can be found. Ammo is a different story. It's going to take the manufacturers a few months to gear up for the new supply demand. I think a lot of ammo manufacturers just weren't prepared for the panic buying. It's a lot easier to get AK ammo than AR 15 ammo. Magazines are going to be difficult though, because a lot of the manufacturers are waiting to see if their 30 round models are going to be banned, and some are starting to gear up for 10 round model production.

Anyone who has ever swapped out a magazine knows what a bonehead idea limiting a mag to 10 rounds is. What a bunch of idiots.

[Grammar Rules]

3275


If this looks familiar, you might want to tone it down.
8-;

[Mestral]

. . .
Anyone who has ever swapped out a magazine knows what a bonehead idea limiting a mag to 10 rounds is. What a bunch of idiots.
They are not idiots, they are evil. They are also working on making it so you have to have the magazine screwed in, and remove screws or something to change magazines.

Ammo is beginning to trickle back in, but I think 5.56 will probably be the last one on the list to be plentiful again.



If this looks familiar, you might want to tone it down.
8-;Off topic.



From Sun Tzu’s “Art Of War”…“To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence: supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.”

[Grammar Rules]

What stopped the shooter who killed six and injured eighteen including of Rep Giffords was that he paused to change magazines. Yes, yes, had there been an armed security guard....yes, yes, had the paranoid schizophrenic shooter been locked away....this also might have been mitigated. But the fact is, the pause was all that was needed for him to be tackled.

Meanwhile, if Alex Jones is a "source" for the blog you quote, you don't get credibility for calling a satirical cartoon that depicts paranoia on gun issues "off target."

[sojourner truth]

Well, if the system would have caught and taken care of this nut before he shot all of those people, he would never have killed 6 or shot 18 people in the first place. Ever think about that? Make that your first priority.

Yet there is almost no remedy in discussion for that aspect of these shootings. Take care of the obvious first, then we can talk about cosmetic solutions like limiting mag capacity.

It is obvious as heck that the current frenzy of presidential campaign style anti gun tactics being used are aimed solely at weapons, and not the real problem....People.

There are millions of gun owners in this country who own and responsibly use their weapons. They are being unfairly targeted for the misdeeds of a handful of psychos. Like I said, there are people killed by drunk drivers and texters on the roads every day. Why aren't there as many cries to ban alcohol, cell phones or cars? Because it's stupid...that's why.

[Rick]

Can we try to keep this section about guns and and stuff and keep the talk about the trashing of the Constitution in the News section?

[Mestral]

They are not idiots, they are evil. They are also working on making it so you have to have the magazine screwed in, and remove screws or something to change magazines.

Ammo is beginning to trickle back in, but I think 5.56 will probably be the last one on the list to be plentiful again.
And ignoring the off topic hallucinations from the peanut gallery, back to ammo and magazines.


Do you suppose this ban might encourage an underground industry, local manufacture, of 30 round magazines?
That might be one way to get around the ban. Especially if the local sheriff refuses to enforce unconstitutional laws.



From Sun Tzu’s “Art Of War”…“To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence: supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.”

[Grammar Rules]

There you go with the unconstitutionality of it all. The McLennan County Sheriff has waded in with the anti-Feds. Why aren't you guys pelting our new Sheriff Lange with demands? Even better, with oath and pledges to swear to and sign?

It's popcorn time in the peanut gallery.

[Mestral]

There you go with the unconstitutionality of it all. The McLennan County Sheriff has waded in with the anti-Feds. Why aren't you guys pelting our new Sheriff Lange with demands? Even better, with oath and pledges to swear to and sign?

It's popcorn time in the peanut gallery.OK, I don't know what you are talking about, with the McLennan County Sheriff and Sherriff Lange and demands ant swearing and signing pledges. Why don't we meet in "Secession (http://www.centextalk.com/vb/showthread.php/17007-Secession/page7)" to discuss it further. You have me interested.

[mac]

sojourna; my remarks about the .45-70 only apply to the marlin.....not any italian knock off.

i have killed dozens of white tail, several muley's and a bunch of pronghorns with the .243. it is instant death, very fast. one of the best complilments i ever received was from a forestmeister in germany who was with me when i shot a roebuck at about 180meters that fell over like a silloutte. he look down range, looks back at me, looks down range again, looks at the rifle again and then says to me....in very good deutsch, "he didn't even hear it". it is extremely hard for, maybe even unheard of, an American to get a compliment from a german forstmeister....mac


I was also noticing that there is still a ton of 243 on the shelf. Never fired any of that, and I'm not sure of its capabilities. I have always thought it was designed for ladies or young shooters. Since there is so much ammo available for it, I assume there isn't much demand.

The only thing about 45-70 is that it is pretty expensive. I am waiting for a weapon price quote now, and the only brand available is Rossi, and I'm not so sure about that brand. Just seems wrong to have an Italian lever action rifle....I did see that there are some lever action rifles on DiFis list of proposed banned rifles. Evidently, anything with a trigger is fair game.

[Mestral]

sojourna; my remarks about the .45-70 only apply to the marlin.....not any italian knock off.

i have killed dozens of white tail, several muley's and a bunch of pronghorns with the .243. it is instant death, very fast. one of the best complilments i ever received was from a forestmeister in germany who was with me when i shot a roebuck at about 180meters that fell over like a silloutte. he look down range, looks back at me, looks down range again, looks at the rifle again and then says to me....in very good deutsch, "he didn't even hear it". it is extremely hard for, maybe even unheard of, an American to get a compliment from a german forstmeister....macFor an instant kill, bullet placement is everything. I would have to say you are a good shot. A bigger round will help if there is something in the way, as with the German/Russian boars (and there are a number of them here now) or if the shot is two or three inches off. Didn't hear it coming is right though, with the 243 at 180 meters (200 yards for some) the sound would trail about 1/4 second behind the bullet.

[Dagobert II]

When you rock 'n roll a thirty round magazine empties in no time. Yeah, I know, that's all the old SMG's used to have, but 50 seems a much more manageable number for full auto. I'm still not sure about the 100 round mags. The Aurora dude had one of those and I understand it jammed even though this fellow seems to have no trouble with his. Still, shot placement is probably more important.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6pI0Oc_gak

[Mestral]

When you rock 'n roll a thirty round magazine empties in no time. Yeah, I know, that's all the old SMG's used to have, but 50 seems a much more manageable number for full auto. I'm still not sure about the 100 round mags. The Aurora dude had one of those and I understand it jammed even though this fellow seems to have no trouble with his. Still, shot placement is probably more important. . . .Your mileage may vary of course, but I have no use for full auto. Ammo is too expensive and to heavy to carry enough of to make full auto fire a reasonable choice of weapons. Now, grenades, on the other hand . . .

[Dagobert II]

Your mileage may vary of course, but I have no use for full auto. Ammo is too expensive and to heavy to carry enough of to make full auto fire a reasonable choice of weapons. Now, grenades, on the other hand . . . ... or flame weapons - they're hell on a lot of the nylon and plastic bling with which some folks tend to adorn themselves.

[Mestral]

I was also noticing that there is still a ton of 243 on the shelf. Never fired any of that, and I'm not sure of its capabilities. I have always thought it was designed for ladies or young shooters. Since there is so much ammo available for it, I assume there isn't much demand. . .I have noticed 270 seems to be available, both last week and this week.

[sojourner truth]

Well I actually saw a number of brands of lever action rifles in 270, 243, 45-70, and 357 for sale the other day. If I get one, it will be in a caliber that nobody else wants. Problem is, the longer the round, the fewer in the tubular magazines...limiting you to 4 or 5. In 44 magnum or 357, you can get 10 to 15 in the magazine.

[mac]

well.....i prob'ly wouldn't want a .243 that's tube loaded......or any other "pointy" bullet. i have never personally saw a lever .243....i might be real scared of that.

i don't know why and i prob'ly don't have any good reason for sayin' it, but i prob'ly wouldn't buy any kind of lever 'cept a marlin....well, maybe a henry.....

for those of you who have never hunted white tails or pronghorn with a .243, you've missed one of the finer joys of life...it's a beautiful thing....mac


Well I actually saw a number of brands of lever action rifles in 270, 243, 45-70, and 357 for sale the other day. If I get one, it will be in a caliber that nobody else wants. Problem is, the longer the round, the fewer in the tubular magazines...limiting you to 4 or 5. In 44 magnum or 357, you can get 10 to 15 in the magazine.

[Mestral]

Well I actually saw a number of brands of lever action rifles in 270, 243, 45-70, and 357 for sale the other day. If I get one, it will be in a caliber that nobody else wants. Problem is, the longer the round, the fewer in the tubular magazines...limiting you to 4 or 5. In 44 magnum or 357, you can get 10 to 15 in the magazine.I had been kikking around the idea of a lever rifle, until I saw the Hi-Point and it was in my price range (until around Christmas). In my research I found this bit of advice, Marlin had some quality issues in 2011, so you might want to think twice about that brand. Source:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/07/chris-dumm/gunsmith-review-wild-west-guns-marlin-rescue-project/

[mac]

well, both of my marlins, a .45-70 and a .357 are pretty old.....prob'ly "old" marlin, not "new" marlin......mac


I had been kikking around the idea of a lever rifle, until I saw the Hi-Point and it was in my price range (until around Christmas). In my research I found this bit of advice, Marlin had some quality issues in 2011, so you might want to think twice about that brand. Source:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/07/chris-dumm/gunsmith-review-wild-west-guns-marlin-rescue-project/

[Mestral]

well, both of my marlins, a .45-70 and a .357 are pretty old.....prob'ly "old" marlin, not "new" marlin......mac
Agreed. The author of the article said Marlins were traditionally a quality weapon.

[sojourner truth]

I have looked at Marlins specifically based on Macs reccomendations. There are numerous customer reviews and most are pretty good. The price of Marlin repeaters is very competitive, in fact downright cheap considering the competition.

I was seriously considering the 357 because of capacity, and the 45-70 just...well...because. How many people do you know that even know what a 45-70 is? My grandpa had a Shaprs 45-70 and 45-90 falliung block rifle. Man, was that an accurate piece. It kicked like a Missouri mule on steroids, but when you shot something, it was shot. He used to tell me it would shoot a thousand yards and then start throwing rocks.:))

[Mestral]

I'll admit I hadn't looked it up. I'm lazy like that, on guns I know I can't afford. I had been just interpreting it in my mind as either 45x90 or an extrapolation of 30-30. So this morning I looked it up and it is an extrapolation of 30-30. 45 caliber bullet, 70 grains of powder. Velocity similar to 30-30 but with more than double the weight. (yes, I love anything to do with math, and that includes ballistics)
From Buffalo Bore:
(300gr JHP expander)
2355 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel
2263 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5 inch barrel

[Mestral]

Seen online this morning at 6:10am
30 round Magpul for AR-15 $40
and Tapco for AK-47 $20
one entry for each type
http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Ammunition-Magazines-s/1901.htm

[sojourner truth]

Goodsite...At least these guys are honest and tell you right up front that it's a hit or miss deal when you order.

Ammo is hard enough to fing right now, but magazines are simply impossible to find. I would have thought that the manufacturers could keep pace a little better than they have. Right now, I have just received 3 new Magpul AK magazines, and the AR 15 mags are on the way. The 7.62x39 is coming next week, but the 5.56 is on backorder until August in quantities over 500 rounds.

The days of online ordering 1000 rounds are over for a long time I'm afraid.

[Mestral]

Seen online this morning at 6:10am
30 round Magpul for AR-15 $40
and Tapco for AK-47 $20
one entry for each type
http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Ammunition-Magazines-s/1901.htm


Goodsite...At least these guys are honest and tell you right up front that it's a hit or miss deal when you order.

. . .Actually, what the site says is that if you see it, it is there when you clicked on the site. You can get it, unless someone finishes their order while you are filling out your. Just clarifying, for those who might missunderstand.

Oddly, those magazine are still listed. Of course, $40 and $20 are something like 2 or 3 times the normal price, but they were going at $65 at the gun show, from what I heard. So maybe the rush is beginning to calm just a little.

Went to the range yesterday. Shot a little less than normal amount. Better half shot her normal course of fire, which is about 1/2 of mine. At Christmas, I traded shotgun shells for some ammo for her gun, so she is stocked up for a few years worth (at her meager rate of consumption).

[Mestral]

News updates:

Just got back from the army surplus store in Cove Terrace. She has a small stack of magazines behind the counter, for $20 each. Has been a long time since I carried the rifle, but to me they looked like 30 round 5.56 mags.

Also there is a rumor going around that the army is now crushing or otherwise destroying all used ammo cans. She has the medium sized ones (about 7x9x12 inch, says .50 cal on the side) for $24 each.

[sojourner truth]

Yep...Just ordered a few ammo cans on line for storage. If I didn't have to drive all the way over to Cove, I'd go get some of those mags. I have some on the way to add to my stock, but they won't get here till Feb. sometime. The 7.62x39 is easier to get by far than the 5.56.

[Mestral]

Ammo Cans update
OK. Been looking around at the various articles and sales sites. Here is what I found.
http://oldgrouchsurplus.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/why-ammo-cans-are-getting-more-expensive-and-harder-to-find/

there has been no executive order or directive that all ammo cans be crushed. Now some are being destroyed, but it is do the incompetence of government workers, no an executive order
. . .
It used to be that when a unit went to the range they drew ammo that was packed just like “go to war” ammo- it was in stripper clips, bandoleers and and .50 cal ammo cans. That meant that every day lots of cans were opened, the ammo used, and the cans went to be sold. Someone saw that this was wasting money, and they changed so that 5.56 training ammo is now issued in cardboard boxes. The result is that the taxpayers are saving a lot of money, but there are a lot fewer surplus cans sold.

The second thing is that more and more national retailers are starting to bid on the cans, and that drives prices up. Chains like Northern Tool have found that they can get $15 or more for a 50 cal ammo can. This drives prices up further.

Sales sites seem to indicate $24 is a lot for those cans, and $15 is closer to the going price.

[Night Owl]

If a retailer buys at $15 then $24 is not a bad mark up. Normal mark up is 100%.

[sojourner truth]

Just got 4 new plastic ammo cans. Very nice and cost $16 a pop. They are very sturdy and can carry about 800 rounds plus 6 loaded mags. They only took 2 days to get here.

Now, if ammo and mags had the same turnaround time it would be nice.

[Grammar Rules]

I buy cat litter at Sam's. it comes in sturdy rectangular plastic buckets with flip-tops and metal handles for carrying. Would the empties be suitable for ammo? You know, in case I run out of ammo cans or decide to offer my CTT friends some extras?

[Mestral]

I buy cat litter at Sam's. it comes in sturdy rectangular plastic buckets with flip-tops and metal handles for carrying. Would the empties be suitable for ammo? You know, in case I run out of ammo cans or decide to offer my CTT friends some extras?Yes. Well, somewhat.

Weight would be a minor issue, but as long as you don't try to stuff every cartridge possible into it, weight shouldn't be a problem. Stick with the weight of the cat litter as a limit to how heavy to load them. Also, how high can they be stacked, when full? (How high are they stacked in the store?)

Second issue would be durability. Ammo cans are meant to protect ammo from something. If you are talking about something to store ammo out in a barn, the plastic bucket should be fine. Basement ditto. Remote cache, buried 3 feet down, 245 yards from your house, not so much. Even in the barn, might need to consider what may get stacked on top of them or might fall on them (Mrs O'leary's lantern?) Bottom line: they will work for many, but not all, situations.

Currently, I am looking at securing some metal ones, before the supply gets too short. I just don't want to spend a fortune doing it.

[kantwin]

Currently, I am looking at securing some metal ones, before the supply gets too short. I just don't want to spend a fortune doing it.
Some here for $478 a piece.
http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-Lake-City-50-BMG-660-Grain-M17-Tracer-p/m17aca.htm
But, they come with 100 rounds of .50 tracers as a bonus.

[kantwin]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/623409/beretta-magazine-beretta-92-cx4-storm-with-92-96-series-magazine-well-9mm-luger-15-round-steel-blue?cm_cat=CheckoutConfirm&cm_pla=ProductDescrip
Beretta 92FS magazines for under 20 bucks.
Limit 2 per order.

[sojourner truth]

Some here for $478 a piece.
http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-Lake-City-50-BMG-660-Grain-M17-Tracer-p/m17aca.htm
But, they come with 100 rounds of .50 tracers as a bonus.



I like my guns, but I think a 50 cal is just a bit over the top for my uses. Never did like shooting one either. It was a bear to aim accurately for me, and way to heavy to carry for a runt like me.

I didn't mind humping the barrell, but the whole rig is another story.

[Dagobert II]

Here ya go folks. Make your own long-term, water tight storage containers with PVC pipe and end caps (just saw it on National Geographic Preppers). This guy drives around the country burying pipes full of arms and ammo for later use when SHTF. He buries them at night so as to avoid being seen, buries them vertically to reduce their surface signature and supposedly has some lining to prevent their location using a metal detector. He records their location on his GPS. This video isn't of the guy on National Geographic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUogyKl4IYE

[Mestral]

Here ya go folks. Make your own long-term, water tight storage containers with PVC pipe and end caps (just saw it on National Geographic Preppers). This guy drives around the country burying pipes full of arms and ammo for later use when SHTF. Yeah. I really wish you guys wouldn't keep telling all our secrets on here.
:lookside:
(surprised we still don't have one of these with a black helocopter)

[Mestral]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/623409/beretta-magazine-beretta-92-cx4-storm-with-92-96-series-magazine-well-9mm-luger-15-round-steel-blue?cm_cat=CheckoutConfirm&cm_pla=ProductDescrip
Beretta 92FS magazines for under 20 bucks.
Limit 2 per order.I think they are currently out of stock.

We're sorry, due to high demand, the manufacturer is unable to provide a reliable "Date expected in stock," therefore we are unable to take a backorder. Please use our Notify Me feature to receive an alert as soon as the product arrives.
OTOH, I snagged two of them back in the last crisis (but I never managed to get the pistol to go with them), and I think I still have them. If anyone needs two magazines for a 92FS, let me know by PM and I'll see if I can dig them up.

[kantwin]

I think they are currently out of stock.

OTOH, I snagged two of them back in the last crisis (but I never managed to get the pistol to go with them), and I think I still have them. If anyone needs two magazines for a 92FS, let me know by PM and I'll see if I can dig them up.

It said that when I purchased yesterday,too. If you can add it to the cart, you should be good to go.

[Mestral]

I think they are currently out of stock.

OTOH, I snagged two of them back in the last crisis (but I never managed to get the pistol to go with them), and I think I still have them. If anyone needs two magazines for a 92FS, let me know by PM and I'll see if I can dig them up.


It said that when I purchased yesterday,too. If you can add it to the cart, you should be good to go.
OK, but I still need the pistol, and I can't afford that :)

[sojourner truth]

That's the thing on a lot of these gun sites. They will show an item as "in stock", let you add it to the cart and go through all the payment proceedures, and then say"Oh by the way, that item is out of stock and won't be here for 8 months...do you still want to keep it on backorder". Now THAT is false advertising and a crock.

What I wish they would do is just show you what IS in stock and in the warehouse and save us all the time.

Personally, I'd bet it will be at least a year before we see any type of normalcy in the ammo/magazine/gun area. A friend told mer yesterday that there is a small group of people who know the guys at Academy and that they get a "heads up" when the ammo delivery truck is going to get there, and then they set up a tent in the parking lot and sell it all out in minutes.

[Mestral]

That's the thing on a lot of these gun sites. They will show an item as "in stock", let you add it to the cart and go through all the payment proceedures, and then say"Oh by the way, that item is out of stock and won't be here for 8 months...do you still want to keep it on backorder". Now THAT is false advertising and a crock.

What I wish they would do is just show you what IS in stock and in the warehouse and save us all the time.
Well, I know a couple of them that do post it correctly to their site. AmmoToGo gave me something of a shock when I ordered from them, telling me after I ordered that it might be 3 or 4 weeks before they got the order out (December, before the big rush) but then got it out in about 10 days. Don't know how they are doing nowadays.

Personally, I'd bet it will be at least a year before we see any type of normalcy in the ammo/magazine/gun area. A friend told mer yesterday that there is a small group of people who know the guys at Academy and that they get a "heads up" when the ammo delivery truck is going to get there, and then they set up a tent in the parking lot and sell it all out in minutes.At least a year, yes. At least.

The thing with Academy sounds like a rumor, but you never know these days. I do know the pistol ammo section in the store is about 1/3 of what it was, before. Yesterday they had 38, 357, 45, and 10mm. No 40S&W or 9mm. My guess is, right now, the LE guys are buying that up as fast as it can be produced. Same with 5.56.

[sojourner truth]

Lucky Gunner has 41 cans of bulk 5.56x45 available. I just ordered 500 rounds. They say on their site that they only list what they actually have.

The ammo is 5.56x45, and not 223. If your weapon is 223, you can't use the 5.56 nato because it is too hot. You can hoot 223 out of a weapon that is rated 5.56x45, but not the other way around..FYI...It is made by federal.

Not sure what else they had available because I wanted to close the deal before it popped off the market.

[kantwin]

That site also has ammo cans for $20 bucks.

[Mestral]

I did a quick check of a couple other stores, at the one on Willow, I didn't see any, and the one I found on Rancier (about 200West) had only the skinny ones. At these prices, I will improvise something else. I might also be able to scavenge or scrounge some, but I ain't paying 20+ apiece for them. GR said kitty litter. Hmmm, I know a couple people that keep enough pets to require a kennel license... And there is always concrete, to reinforce a container :)
(actually I would use an epoxy or polymer, but will have to do research to know which one to use)

[Mestral]

Stopped by JT's in Cove today. They have .32 .380 and 38, along with some of the more esoteric calibers,
such as 9mmMarkov 38Super and 357Sig

Oddly, they were out of the 9mm Snap Caps.
Hope the police aren't desperately buying up those "dangerous Red Bullets." :)

[kantwin]

Luckygunner currently has some 9mm - 124 gr JHP - Remington Golden Saber- 500 Rounds for $440.00. 88 cents per round. Who in their right mind would pay that much?

[sojourner truth]

Me. I just got a 600 round box of 5.56 NATO at $420. I've had offers from folks that will pay $1.20 a round if I am willing to sell it. I'm not. Lucky gunner is the only web site that has the good calibers in stock at all, and they tell you if they really have it or not instead of saying they do and then saying "oops, we had to backorder it". They even had some 30 caliber carbine on the block.

I also got some 30 round AR 15 mags from them. About the only thing I have not been able to find is 7.62 NATO. My 7.62x39 is still on backorder from sportsmans guide, and Cabellas finally shipped my 22 long rifle yesterday. It seems the pipeline is starting to loosen up a little bit.

Now I can go to the range without worrying about my "basic load" dipping to low. Lucky Gunner is the best place so far I have found that has stuff. They aren't cheap, but these prices are going to be the "new normal" I'm afraid. Good thing I'm married to a rich woman.

[kantwin]

But would you pay that much for 9mm Luger?

[Night Owl]

But would you pay that much for 9mm Luger?

Depends on the need.

[Mestral]

Luckygunner currently has some 9mm - 124 gr JHP - Remington Golden Saber- 500 Rounds for $440.00. 88 cents per round. Who in their right mind would pay that much?88 cents a round for GoldenSaber is a high price for buying cases, but I generally saw it for about 70 cents and up retail, last year. Generally I wouldn't use it as practice ammo, so I wouldn't buy that much of it. I do understand, though, if you use it in your carry weapon, you have to put a couple boxes or so through it, from time to time, to insure it feeds reliably.

[Dagobert II]

Academy has one box of .308 available yesterday for about $40. The cashier and I just looked and laughed.

[Mestral]

Academy has one box of .308 available yesterday for about $40. The cashier and I just looked and laughed.That had better be some danged fine .308 (or a box of 50)

[Dagobert II]

That had better be some danged fine .308 (or a box of 50) It must be the werewolf or Lone Ranger special with solid silver bullets.

[sojourner truth]

My M1A can shoot 308 despite what the manufacturer reccomends, but it is just too expensive. I still have about 500 rounds of 7.62 NATO that I am not going to shoot until more is available. 308 is outrageous, andI don't like shooting it unless I have to. The round is almost identical to 7.62 NATO but has a higher chamber pressure. The info you get on line is contradictory, but most folks that have M1as have shot 308 in them, and say it works fine. Where it gets iffy is if you are shooting it out of a vintage 7.62 weapon that is older, and not designed for the higher chamber pressures. At least that's what the internet scoop is.

That 9mm price is just a bit higher than I would pay. I have a 380, and finding that is a little easier than the 9mil. The shortage of 22 long rifle really came as a surprise, but Cabellas finally shipped mine yesterday.

[mac]

fedex just brought me my order from natchez a few moments ago. got some magazines for my m1 carbine and mini 14. also some red dot, green dot, ammo for the mini 14, and for my hanoi star pistol (9mm para) which is generally pretty hard to get and not cheap. might wanna give them a look. they have tons of ammo and magazines. a lot of their mags come from pro mags which are pretty dammed good. natchezss.com.....mac

[Mestral]

. . . The shortage of 22 long rifle really came as a surprise, but Cabellas finally shipped mine yesterday.The shortage of .22 came from followers of J.W.Rawles book, where it equates .22 ammo with money in the first couple of years of a post war economy. Thus about a million people each bought a case of it in early Jan.


. . . a lot of their mags come from pro mags which are pretty dammed good. natchezss.com.....macThey may be good, but if anyone has a HiPoint, don't use the promags in it unless you modify them. The ones that everyone thinks is a direct substitute will overstress and damage a couple of parts in the weapon.

[sojourner truth]

Got the 22 long rifle a few minutes ago. Now if I could just find magazines for the MP 15-22 it would make range time go better.

[mac]

you prob'ly got the same fedex guy i got....doubt if he 'ppreciates either one of us...mac

[Mestral]

you prob'ly got the same fedex guy i got....doubt if he 'ppreciates either one of us...macWhy, just cause your packages feel like they are full of lead :)

[Citizen/Voter/Resident]

3315

[Grammar Rules]

Oh, lord, make that "Fifty-one Reasons to Love Texas"

[sojourner truth]

I think I saw an ad for another gunshow in Belton this weekend. My wife threw away the paper (hah) before I could read the time and costs. Feb 16th and 17th is what I saw.

[Mestral]

Yep. Here it is.
Belton Expo Building
February 16 - 17, 2013
Saturday 9:00am - 5:00pm
Sunday 10:00am - 4:00pm
Ticket Prices:
Adults $6
12yrs and under are FREE

[Mestral]

I buy cat litter at Sam's. it comes in sturdy rectangular plastic buckets with flip-tops and metal handles for carrying. Would the empties be suitable for ammo? You know, in case I run out of ammo cans or decide to offer my CTT friends some extras?


Yes. Well, somewhat.
. . .I recently discovered one more caveat on this. Check the recycling number on the bottom. If it has the recycling number, and that number is 2,4 or 5, it may be limited in life expectancy. At any rate, keep all plastics out of direct sunlight.

This came to me as I was examining a bucket I got that used to be filled with deck screws. Bit too brittle, been out in the weather for several months, and has cracks in it.

Parallel to that, plastic paint buckets, sold at Wal-Mart are about $4 (http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/food-grade-buckets-walmart/), I think he is referring to 1 gallon size. (I just noticed, the post is from two years ago)

paint department at Walmart and noticed the white paint buckets.

I picked one up and looked at the bottom. The manufacturer name and phone number were listed on the bottom. I called the company and asked if the buckets were food grade.

The receptionist at the company stated “Yes. If the buckets are white, transparent, or natural (beige), the buckets are 100% FDA- approved food grade. If they are other colors, they are rated food-safe, not food grade.” (No idea what that means and I did not think to ask.)

The white buckets were $2.96 apiece. The lids, without gaskets, were sold separately and were .99 apiece. Not bad at all for the budget.

To verify the buckets are the right ones, your readers should look for the following stamped on the bottom of the buckets: Encore Plastics Corp. Cambridge Ohio, 1-800-336-2673.Only downside on these buckets is they are round, but that is a small thing.

[sojourner truth]

I am transferring my basic load from on e container into new plastic ammo cans I bought from Sportsmans guide. The biggest concern is the handles. On a metal can, it is very hard to strain the handle to the breaking point. On these plastic cans, the weight of a thousand rounds of ammo is a concern. So far so good, but the plastic isn't very old either.

I have a "range bag" that used to be a nylon lunch bag my wife used when she was working. It can hold 10 mags of AK and AR rounds, plus some 22LR and pistol ammo. The bag is pretty darn strong, and works great for a day at the range. It is water resistant, and has a nice long shoulder strap. I use a second old lunch bag for extra stuff like cleaning rods, target tacks, solvent and gun oil.

If the prices at this gun show are like the last time, I may stay home. $45 bucks for a used AR mag is just ridiculous. $55 for 50 rounds of 223 is highway robbery.

[Mestral]

Just did a gun store survey.
Ammo in 9mm, 40s&W, 223, 5.56, 7.62(all), 308, and 22lr are rationed, if and when available.
pistol ammo in 32, 380, 10mm, 45ACP, 38 and 357 are fairly plentiful.

Most hunting rifle cartridges, including 30-06 seem to be available.

Magazines are slowly working their way back into the stores, but at 2 to 3 times the old price.
- (I predict another shortage of these when people realize they will need more.
-- A good number is 10 or more for each weapon.)

I saw half dozen defense rifles for sale at Guns Unlimited in Gatesville.
At least a couple were 223 and at least a couple in 7.62x39.

The carbine I want is still on the shortage list. (9mm)

[Mestral]

I am transferring my basic load from on e container into new plastic ammo cans I bought from Sportsmans guide. The biggest concern is the handles. On a metal can, it is very hard to strain the handle to the breaking point. On these plastic cans, the weight of a thousand rounds of ammo is a concern. So far so good, but the plastic isn't very old either.

I have a "range bag" that used to be a nylon lunch bag my wife used when she was working. It can hold 10 mags of AK and AR rounds, plus some 22LR and pistol ammo. The bag is pretty darn strong, and works great for a day at the range. It is water resistant, and has a nice long shoulder strap. I use a second old lunch bag for extra stuff like cleaning rods, target tacks, solvent and gun oil.

If the prices at this gun show are like the last time, I may stay home. $45 bucks for a used AR mag is just ridiculous. $55 for 50 rounds of 223 is highway robbery.I don't know what kind of plastic we are talking about, so I don't know the life expectancy. Nylon might be the worst, as far as damage from sunlight, but OTOH, I have some weedeater string bracing a small tree in my backyard that has been in the sun for 10 months, and seat belts are a nylon blend. I would still keep those nylon bags in the shade when possible. Other kinds of weather don't seem to be a problem, just direct exposure to sunlight.

I have had, or seen others have problems with the three kinds of plastic containers I mentioned above, after they are 3 to 13 years in age. Anything I would be storing ammo in, I would want to insure they would be good for at least 10 years.

I have found medium sized ammo cans in only a couple locations. At the store in Cove Terrace, I found them two weeks ago for about $24, in good shape and with a fresh coat of paint. Saturday, at a store about two miles short of Burnet (on 281), I found some unpainted ones for about $16.

[mac]

no ration on .308 or .22 LR at natchezss.com......got a bunch of it last week.....

mac
Just did a gun store survey.
Ammo in 9mm, 40s&W, 223, 5.56, 7.62(all), 308, and 22lr are rationed, if and when available.
pistol ammo in 32, 380, 10mm, 45ACP, 38 and 357 are fairly plentiful.

Most hunting rifle cartridges, including 30-06 seem to be available.

Magazines are slowly working their way back into the stores, but at 2 to 3 times the old price.
- (I predict another shortage of these when people realize they will need more.
-- A good number is 10 or more for each weapon.)

I saw half dozen defense rifles for sale at Guns Unlimited in Gatesville.
At least a couple were 223 and at least a couple in 7.62x39.

The carbine I want is still on the shortage list. (9mm)

[kantwin]

That site has nothing good in 22LR or 9mm available now.

[sojourner truth]

I finally got my 22LR the other day from Cabellas. It took a month, but my MP 15-22 only eats Federal ammo.Anything else jams or fails to feed.


Now, if I could only find a few more mags for it. Everyone is out, with no delivery date or resupply date in sight for MP 15-22 mags. They can be found on Ebay for outrageous prices.

I'd really love to know why the factories haven't reacted to the shortage and panic buying with additional output and supply. I mean, if I had a product that was elling as fast as it hit the shelf, I'd have people working day and night making overtime and raking in the dough.

[Mestral]

The places that aren't rationing (limiting size of orders) get sold out within hours of when they get resupplied. Those who do ration sell out soon afterwards, but to a larger number of (simi-happy) customers. A few places are taking backorders. I know at least one place that has rifles back ordered, but will only back order 5 of them. And 5 are on back order. I go there once in a while to see if I can get on the list.

Don't give up on the mags, I am sure the factories are producing as many as they can, with what machines and machinists are available. Ultimately, I would say the future for magazines, for at least the next couple of years is: "double the old price" will be the new norm.

[Mestral]

Just checked, Ammo to Go has NO 9mm FMJ (practice) and Cheaper than Dirt has only TulAmmo brand (which a lot of people avoid for various reasons). Ammunition Depot, Lucky Gunner and Nachezss are out. I think we are hitting another round of shortage. (State of the Union?)

[mac]

wow....my .22LR was all remington (a bucket of it), 36 grain, hp and the 9mm para was Hornady. sure am glad i ordered when i did....mac
Just checked, Ammo to Go has NO 9mm FMJ (practice) and Cheaper than Dirt has only TulAmmo brand (which a lot of people avoid for various reasons). Ammunition Depot, Lucky Gunner and Nachezss are out. I think we are hitting another round of shortage. (State of the Union?)

[Mestral]

I was checking because a friend was looking for some practice ammo and all either one of us could find was hollow point.
Nothing wrong with practicing with hollow point, except it is about twice the price.

[kantwin]

I was checking because a friend was looking for some practice ammo and all either one of us could find was hollow point.
Nothing wrong with practicing with hollow point, except it is about twice the price.

If not more than twice.

[kisdparent]

I went to Guns Galore today and found a few boxes of .380 available. Academy and Walmart have been out for several weeks. They seemed to have a little of most handgun calibres available. There is a two box limit.

[sojourner truth]

Shoot...I'd never considered guns galore as they are pretty pricey. I have a bunch of 380 already. Don't use it much. Not since I got the 45.

[Mestral]

I went to Guns Galore today and found a few boxes of .380 available. Academy and Walmart have been out for several weeks. They seemed to have a little of most handgun calibres available. There is a two box limit.

Shoot...I'd never considered guns galore as they are pretty pricey. I have a bunch of 380 already. Don't use it much. Not since I got the 45.I was thinking yesterday, where this will go next, and it occurred to me that .380 is made with pretty much the same dies that 9mm is, so I would expect it to go short soon. From the message above, it seems I am a little behind the curve with this thought.

Hence, if you need .380, it might be wise to stock up now.
Might be good to tell anyone you know that has a 380.

[Mestral]

I was thinking yesterday, where this will go next, and it occurred to me that .380 is made with pretty much the same dies that 9mm is, so I would expect it to go short soon. From the message above, it seems I am a little behind the curve with this thought.

Hence, if you need .380, it might be wise to stock up now.
Might be good to tell anyone you know that has a 380.

OK, I just checked Ammo to Go, Ammunition Depot, and Cheaper than Dirt. Virtually every pistol caliber I checked is in something of a short supply, with (usually) some defense ammo available, but not practice ammo. I also checked some rifle ammo 223, 556, 7.62, even 30-30, 243, 270 and 30 Carbine are in short supply.

I suspect two things. Many manufactures concentrating on the stuff that is in the worst shortages, and more people buying because of the impending shortages.

[mac]

befor Dick made my sh1t list i bought a case and about a quarter of ammo off of them for my little m1 carbine at an out ragejously low price. i'm not suggesting anyone patronize them since they went "smith and wesson" on us but it's just a thought.......i don't expect to ever need it but my little carbine is my "prepper" weapon of choice....(don't ask, you don't wanna know...besides, i might have to kill you if i told you).....mac


OK, I just checked Ammo to Go, Ammunition Depot, and Cheaper than Dirt. Virtually every pistol caliber I checked is in something of a short supply, with (usually) some defense ammo available, but not practice ammo. I also checked some rifle ammo 223, 556, 7.62, even 30-30, 243, 270 and 30 Carbine are in short supply.

I suspect two things. Many manufactures concentrating on the stuff that is in the worst shortages, and more people buying because of the impending shortages.

[Mestral]

To a large degree, I am just chronicling the shortage, but I am thinking about the possibility of myself and a couple others going in together to buy a case of practice ammo (I don't need a case all to myself). Right now, though, the best price I can find on 9mm is about 60 cents a round, and that is just a little too pricy.

Wish I could assume this will all blow over, but with DHS stockpiling (their orders have reached 1.6 billion (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/14/why-is-department-homeland-security-buying-so-many-bullets/) rounds) to the extend we now know this isn't about normal ops, I suspect the shortage will be ongoing for the foreseeable future. I think our government is in an arms race against its own citizens.

[Ludwig]

Since they cannot get the votes to outlaw ammunition manufacture and sales, one of the best ways to keep it out of the citizen's hands is to buy up the supply and thus drive the price up out of the citizen's ability to compete. There is no limit to how much the DHS can spend since there is no budget.

[sojourner truth]

Check out Missoris Democrat Congress person who is tabling a bill that would "confiscate" all assault type weapons. A direct attack on the citizens right to bear arms and the 2nd amendment.

Like I said, if you want to defeat the second amendment, just leave the weapons alone and ban everything from ammo to magazines to get the same result. You can have all the assault weapons you want...you just can't get the stuff you need to make them work.

[Mestral]

Since they cannot get the votes to outlaw ammunition manufacture and sales, one of the best ways to keep it out of the citizen's hands is to buy up the supply and thus drive the price up out of the citizen's ability to compete. There is no limit to how much the DHS can spend since there is no budget.Their previous explanation:
In fact, there are 65,000 – 70,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS who would be covered under this IDIQ ammunition contract. If DHS were to purchase all 450 million rounds over 5 years, then that would equate to only about 1,384 rounds of ammo per year per law enforcement personnel (or about 155 rounds per monthisn't holding much water, with their latest purchases. Do they really expect us to believe each of them needs about 400 rounds a month to practice?

[Dagobert II]

Mestral, I hope you're correct about the government stockpiling ammunition in an attempt to keep it out of the hands of the people, because if that IS the case we'll probably see it either buried someplace, where it can be recovered for free, or dumped on the market at fire sale prices so Dear Leader's constituency can get more Obama phone minutes. The other possibility would be that they start expending it against the free people thus giving the free people the opportunity to just take it over from the armories in the revolution.

[Mestral]

Well, thus far, they haven't stockpiled too much, but may have taken shipments amounting to 90M or so rounds.

They haven't begun expending it on citizens, yet, so we're not talking about revolution, yet.

Personally, I insist they fire the first shot.

[mac]

at who?.....


Well, thus far, they haven't stockpiled too much, but may have taken shipments amounting to 90M or so rounds.

They haven't begun expending it on citizens, yet, so we're not talking about revolution, yet.

Personally, I insist they fire the first shot.

[Dagobert II]

at who?..... Good point. Perhaps they already have fired the first shot.

[Mestral]

Good point. Perhaps they already have fired the first shot.Yeah, I'll ignore that. We are obviously on different pages, when it comes to what I call firing the first shot.


Moving back to the ammo situation, did you hear they are going to rename Guns And Ammo magazine?
New name is Empty Shelves Magazine.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[sojourner truth]

Yep...Makes you wonder why the manufacturers aren't cashing in like bandits right now. I am beginning to suspect they aren't increasing supply so that the buying public is willing to pay much higher prices.

But it's ammo, magazines and all accessories. I finally told my suppliers not to send me any more "sales" notifications until they had ammo and mags in stock.

I don't need Ponchos, sleeping bags or fire starters.

[Mestral]

Yep...Makes you wonder why the manufacturers aren't cashing in like bandits right now. I am beginning to suspect they aren't increasing supply so that the buying public is willing to pay much higher prices.
But it's ammo, magazines and all accessories. I finally told my suppliers not to send me any more "sales" notifications until they had ammo and mags in stock.
I don't need Ponchos, sleeping bags or fire starters.Well, I disagree. There is competition, and if Winchester doesn't supply my ammo, UMC might. That said, they have to be concerned with the possible "after the rush" drought. If they supply too much now, there won't be much market for their products next year. Personally, I don't think that is much of a concern either, but I can't discount the possibility they might be worried about it.

I know someone that went to the gun show over the weekend, and saw 6 boxes of 250 UMC 9mm ball ammo go for $1 a round. Quickly. I don't know. Even in this drought, that seems excessive.


OTOH, I just checked Cheaper than Dirt and their warehouse is empty of 9mm. Period. I looked back at a post I did on 2 Jan and saw

Went to CheaperThanDirt and checked 9mm. Sorted by "price per round" and the first 386 catalog entries (out of 500 and some) were "out of stock."I thought that was bad, but things have gotten worse.
CheaperThanDirt only has about 270 catalog entries for 9mm today.

The shortage has branched out to almost every rifle and pistol cartridge made. And, as you pointed out, shortages of magazines and accessories, shortages of ammo boxes, and I noticed even where I get ear plugs, the supply has dried up.

[sojourner truth]

It just seems like something in the supply line just isn't right. Manufacturers aren't that messed up that they fall that far behind in production. Especially with prices and demand so high.

Every site on the net is out with no resupply dates available. It just seems like that isn't possible.

I do know what may be messing it up though. As soon as something is available, there are people with inside connections that buy it all up and then sell it on Ebay for outrageous prices. I find it hard to believe that American (and Russian, and Turkish, and all other foreign mancufaturing) is that unresponsive to demands.

I wonder if there would be as much of a problem if we were talking about Bras or Ball point pens? Just sayin'.

[Mestral]

This is not without precedent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932010_United_States_ammunition_shortag e
The 2008-2010 United States ammunition shortage refers to a shortage of civilian small arms ammunition in the United States that started in late 2008 and continued through most or all of 2010. As of September 2011, ammunition for the most scarce calibers, .380 Auto .45ACP, and .40 S&W pistols — once unavailable at retail stores and gun shops — were again available, but usually with only a few brands or types available. Both firearms and ammunition began selling at a record pace after the 2008 election of President Barack Obama. Cartridge shortages were also experienced for many other popular semiautomatic rifles and pistols. In addition, primers for handloaded ammunition were also in short supply. USA Today reported that in Wyoming, the "run on bullets and reloading components" reached such a "frenzy" that a Cheyenne retailer began rationing sales, and said she was also selling semiautomatic rifles as fast as she could put them on the shelves.

And the current reports are that manufactures have responded:
http://www.infowars.com/guns-and-ammo-production-maxed-out-this-is-a-society-preparing-for-war-2/
http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=33&d=285

AMMO: Every caliber is now Allocated! We are looking at a nation wide shortage of all calibers over the next 9 months. All plants are producing as much ammo as possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced weekly. Most is military followed by L.E. and civilians are third in line.

MAGPUL is behind 1 MILLION mags, do not expect any large quantities of magpul anytime soon.

RELOADERS... ALL Remington, Winchester, CCI & Federal primers are going to ammo FIRST. There are no extra's for reloading purposes... it could be 6-9 months before things get caught up. Sorry for the bleak news, but now we know what to expect in the coming months. Stay tuned, we'll keep you posted...

Many who have exercised their Second Amendment protections are first time buyers concerned with Federal and State gun grabs being spearheaded by politicians who are using the Sandy Hook school shooting as a pretext to restrict access to personal defense rifles, larger capacity magazines, and even ammunition.

But this may only be a part of why there’s so much demand. There are millions of Americans who are genuinely concerned with not just the government taking their guns, but all of their other Constitutionally protected freedoms as well.

[Mestral]

UPDATE: Found an article from Hornady (released about 12 Feb)

This statement doesn't discuss how long this might go on, but "industry experts" cited above are saying 6 to 9 months.

http://www.hornady.com/support/availability

The current political climate has caused extremely high demand on all shooting industry products, including ours. Empty retail shelves, long backorders, and exaggerated price increases on online auction sites – all fueled by rumors and conjecture – have amplified concerns about the availability of ammunition and firearms-related items.

If the information you hear doesn’t originate from Hornady Manufacturing, don’t believe it.

Here are some of rumors we’ve heard, and questions we’ve received:

Have you stopped production, or has the government forced you to stop?
Not at all.
Did you stop selling bullets so you could only make loaded ammunition?
Absolutely not.
Since we can’t find your product you must be selling it all to the government.
Nope, less than 5% of our sales are to government entities.
Why can’t you make more? Ramp up production? Turn on all the machines?
We’ve been steadily growing our production for a long time, especially the last five years. We’ve added presses, lathes, CNC equipment, people and space. Many popular items are produced 24 hours a day. Several hundred Hornady employees work overtime every week to produce as much as safely possible. If there is any question about that – please take a tour of the factory. You’ll be amazed at what you see.

We are producing as much as we can; much more than last year, which was a lot more than the year before, etc. No one wants to ship more during this time than we do.

We appreciate everyone’s understanding and patience. We don’t know when the situation will improve, so please bear with us a little longer. And remember, when it comes to Hornady Manufacturing, if you don’t hear it from us, please don’t believe it.

[Mestral]

Just came back from Gatesville.
40s&W, 38, 357, 44Mag and 380 all in stock.
Rationed, at 1 box per, of course.

Also, they have an assortment (more than half dozen) of defense rifles.

Anyone know anything about a 9mm simiauto made by Marlin?
Little pricy, but they have one.

[sojourner truth]

I just got 3 new mags for my AK 47 today that were at Dirt Cheap. They cost $19 apiece and are really nice mags. I know now where they come from...Israel.

Evidently, demand will find a supplier.

[Mestral]

...Israel.

Evidently, demand will find a supplier.That is what I was trying to say back around post 220 or 219.
Now that we have a good guess on the timeline of this shortage, we can get some idea how much to ration our practice ammo.

[sojourner truth]

What I am thinking is that a lot of people spent a lot of money when the panic buying started, and are now supplied and low on cash. I am noticing some availability in 5.56 and 7.62x39. Prices are higher, but it can be had. Magazines are starting to magically apear at about double what they used to be, but that is going to be the new normal.

I also notice that there isn't much being said about gun legislation any more, as the really hard things aren't being legislated. The easy stuff was passed by executive order, but the strict cuts have to be voted on, and no one wants to touch that rail. I do notice that dealers are now asking magazine buyers what state they live in before agreeing to ship high capacity mags.

Sure glad I'm in Texas.

[Mestral]

. . . I do notice that dealers are now asking magazine buyers what state they live in before agreeing to ship high capacity mags.
Sure glad I'm in Texas.A few states have already passed bans on defense weapons and full capacity magazines.

I hope you are right about ammo beginning to come back, but the last survey I did showed the situation to be as bad as ever. We should know more in another month, of course.

[Dagobert II]

I wonder how many businesses are going to be driven out of tyrannical states and hopefully into Texas? States that have legalized marijuana have been asked about 'drug tourism' coming from states where it is still illegal. I can see a market for arms tourism developing in states where arms are still available with states setting up their own customs inspectors at their borders in attempts to prevent entrepreneurs from profiting from what will be the inevitable black market contraband trade in arms and marijuana between states. Of course this will lead to further corruption of those given the authority to control contraband and folks will wonder why we're awash in blood, money and corruption. "Where there is no free market there will be a black market." Milton Friedman

[Mestral]

It would be good to have our own "Made in Texas" brands of guns and ammo, and we are pursuing Remington for that purpose.
But I don't want to get drifting off into politics too much on this thread.
We could always start another thread about who makes arms where, and how to bring some of them here.

[Mestral]

Here is an odd one to show up. 1000 rounds for $1000 at CheaperThanDirt

XM855 FMJ 62 Grain Steel Penetrator
This is the original US Military Lake City XM855 ammunition
loaded with SS109 penetrator projectiles
Probably be sold before the end of the day,
but I just thought it was an odd round to show up in their warehouse.

[Mestral]

OK, I just checked Ammo to Go, Ammunition Depot, and Cheaper than Dirt. Virtually every pistol caliber I checked is in something of a short supply, with (usually) some defense ammo available, but not practice ammo. I also checked some rifle ammo 223, 556, 7.62, even 30-30, 243, 270 and 30 Carbine are in short supply.
I suspect two things. Many manufactures concentrating on the stuff that is in the worst shortages, and more people buying because of the impending shortages.That was a week ago.
This week, ammo seems to be starting to reappear, sporadically.

45ACP and 40S&W are doing better.
357, 38, 9mm and smaller - not so much.
Defense rifle ammo still in very short supply.

Interesting phenomenon: target bullets are beginning to reappear,
but are not cheaper than defense rounds. Prices are all over the spectrum,
but generally twice as much, or a little more, than last summer.

All in all, I would say this week is better than last week, but only marginally.
(And I mean the difference is small enough I can't be 100% sure it is really better.)

[sojourner truth]

Sportsmans Guide just moved my order for 7.62x39 from the original Feb 19 shipping date to an expected "new shipping date" of mid June. I got 500 rounds from Lucky Gunner and had them shipped yesterday. 500 rounds of 123 grain hollow tip for @250...Not bad.

Now I can afford to go to the range again...It's out there, you just have to know which people actually have a supply line that is real instead of those who "say" they have it then change their mind.

[Mestral]

Right now, 50 cents a round is pretty good for just about any ammo. The prices are all over the spectrum, but except for 22LR, almost everything is over 50 cents a round. I don't expect anything to really get better for a while, but there will be some here and some there, an no telling what the price will be. I think the retail stores that are rationing are doing a good thing, but one box, ouch. I probably won't begin stocking up again until next fall, at the rate things are going. I have enough until then.

[sojourner truth]

Right now, 50 cents a round is pretty good for just about any ammo. The prices are all over the spectrum, but except for 22LR, almost everything is over 50 cents a round. I don't expect anything to really get better for a while, but there will be some here and some there, an no telling what the price will be. I think the retail stores that are rationing are doing a good thing, but one box, ouch. I probably won't begin stocking up again until next fall, at the rate things are going. I have enough until then.

Yep...I have plenty now too and am ready to go burn some up at the range as soon as the weather gets a little warmer.

I'd bet that once everyone has a good stock, and the scalpers can't sell the stuff for ripoff prices, the supply will thaw out.

[Mestral]

Yep...I have plenty now too and am ready to go burn some up at the range as soon as the weather gets a little warmer.
I'd bet that once everyone has a good stock, and the scalpers can't sell the stuff for ripoff prices, the supply will thaw out.Yeah, but I am guessing that will be around Aug or Sep.

[Dagobert II]

Back in the day (when was that, three months ago?), I used to buy Winchester white box 9mm almost exclusively at Walmart. In fact, I still have a couple boxes of that, but since the Obamacrisis, I've been buying whatever's available, usually in small quantities. In recently inventorying my 9mm I've come to the conclusion that I have enough for the time being, but what really struck me is the diversity of 9mm I now have. My ammo case looks like a little UN with ammo from all over the place. I hope it all gets along with my UN collection of 9mm firearms (Smith & Wesson, Calico, Glock, etc).

[mac]

mestral: when you use the word "bullet"....do you mean bullet or cartridge? i get confused trying to follow along sometimes....mac

[QUOTE=Mestral;253863]That was a week ago.
This week, ammo seems to be starting to reappear, sporadically.

target bullets are beginning to reappear,

[Mestral]

. . .. My ammo case looks like a little UN with ammo from all over the place. . .I have that problem with defense ammo. For a while I bought what ever JT had in stock. Fortunately, my guns will eat just about anything they are fed.


mestral: when you use the word "bullet"....do you mean bullet or cartridge? i get confused trying to follow along sometimes....mac[QUOTE]... target bullets are beginning to reappear,
You are right, I should have said target ammo.

While I know it will be a valuable skill in the future, I am not into reloading, although I know someone who is (got a nice Christmas present from him: custom loads).

[mac]

no sweat, it's a problem all of us reloaders have with folks who just shoot 'em and don't make 'em....we never know for sure just exactly what it is they're talkin' 'bout....mac



I have that problem with defense ammo. For a while I bought what ever JT had in stock. Fortunately, my guns will eat just about anything they are fed.

[QUOTE=mac;253913]mestral: when you use the word "bullet"....do you mean bullet or cartridge? i get confused trying to follow along sometimes....mac
You are right, I should have said target ammo.

While I know it will be a valuable skill in the future, I am not into reloading, although I know someone who is (got a nice Christmas present from him: custom loads).

[Mestral]

. . . all of us reloaders have with . . ..mac


. . .So then, someday, I might know another reloader?
I hope you guys are getting your heads together (off line might be better OPSEC) and figuring out how to build a reloader's club.

[mac]

i used to shoot around a thousand rounds a week end, sometimes more, and that's hard to do on a soldier's pay so reloading on monday, tuesday and wednesday nights was the only show in town......mac


So then, someday, I might know another reloader?
I hope you guys are getting your heads together (off line might be better OPSEC) and figuring out how to build a reloader's club.

[Mestral]

i used to shoot around a thousand rounds a week end, . . .macCan you still hear? :)
(I think Vietnam Vets have the highest rate of tinnitus of any demographic, even without your hobby)

[mac]

nah, can't hear worth a shlt....got that tinitis stuff too....in fact, the VA even gave me a machine to play to make the tinitis go away....or disappear...or something like that.....


Can you still hear? :)
(I think Vietnam Vets have the highest rate of tinnitus of any demographic, even without your hobby)

[Night Owl]

What?:))

[sojourner truth]

Try shooting artillery for 20 plus years..And running rifle ranges and grebade ranges and direct fire ranges.

My worst incident was taking a leak in front of the howitzer at Graf one night and not hearing my gunner run off a fire mission while I was standing right next to the muzzle brake. He pulled off the round, I wound up on top of the ammo tarp with a fuse box up my ass, pee all over my uniform and ringing in my ears. It took me 3 months to hear again. I have had a steady ringing in my ears ever since.

You get used to it.

[Mestral]

I have had it from time to time. Before I "got used to it" I would try a number of remedies. There are some homeopathic, some prescription, and everything in between. Also, other members of my family (ours is hereditary) say a slight noise in the room will quiet the ringing significantly.

[sojourner truth]

I've lived with it so long I don't even notice it any more. I bet it would drive other people nuts, but I'm already there so it's no big deal.

[Old Yeller]

Govenment is buying up all the ammunition. One way to implement a ban is if you have no bullets to shoot.

[sojourner truth]

Just got my shipment of another 1,000 rounds of AK ammo from Lucky Gunner yesterday.

The preppers will have to come to me, and they won't like my prices. Bwa ha ha ha..