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Thread: The Great Progressive Propaganda Machine

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by txswimmer View Post
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    The original Greek text, from which the Scriptures were translated, is "tekton", which means any skilled tradesman, to include carpenter or mason. So..........
    well, now just a minute, why do you say that the Scriptures were translated from "the original Greek
    Text" (whatever that means)?......this is another declarative statement posted as fact, Swimmer! Come on, now, give me a break and don't post, as fact, something you only believe.....mac (and I'm not even sure that "Tekton" means "skillled craftsman"....in fact, I don't think it does....close but not accurate....mac
    Last edited by mac; July 30th, 2020 at 6:07 PM.
    Live as if you were living a second time, and as though you had acted wrongly the first time.

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    Well, in the long run, it matters not what Joseph did for a living. Suffice it to say that he fed the family.

    But then that is also relevant in that it smacks of incrementalism... The favorite liberal trick. Like the frog in the pot of water as you turn up the heat. He will just get used to it and stay there until he boils to death.

    Democrats and liberals, like there is a difference, do this with practiced skill. They try and get you to think a little bit their way in small steps that do not seem to make much difference when you do. Over time, they have you right where they want you and can control you. This is what has happened to much of todays America. It is now impossible for anyone to disagree with whatever BS du jour they come up with because you will be shouted down and called a Neanderthal.

    Well. let me just drag my knuckles back to the lazy boy and be normal.
    We have met the enemy and he is us... POGO

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by txswimmer View Post
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    It is something I learned from documentaries, and easy to google. I checked several sources. Some even say that tekton included craftsmen in language and teaching. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe Joseph was a teacher. Like I said, it really is immaterial and adds nothing to the discussion of Jesus's mission. It is just discussion by a bunch of academics trying to sort out who, what, where and when. Kind of like the "official" tomb of Christ, vs. the "garden tomb". Doesn't matter. Salvation is the name of the game.
    Documentaries from what source? What are the several sources? Who are some? What academics? There is so much about this post that is left open ended with no meat on the bone.



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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
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    well, now just a minute, why do you say that the Scriptures were translated from "the original Greek
    Text" (whatever that means)?......this is another declarative statement posted as fact, Swimmer! Come on, now, give me a break and don't post, as fact, something you only believe.....mac (and I'm not even sure that "Tekton" means "skillled craftsman"....in fact, I don't think it does....close but not accurate....mac
    Perhaps this will help settle the issue:

    Verlyn D. Verbrugge explains that tekton could refer to a carpenter, stone mason or metallurgist in classical Greek as well as in the Old and New Testaments. Here are two quotes that introduce the meaning of this word.

    In cl. Greek tekton means a craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal. Though carpenter is the common rendering here, tekton can also mean mason . . .[New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. Zondervan Publishing. 2000. p. 558.]

    J. I. Packer also states that tekton means ” craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal.”[“Carpenter, Builder, Workman, Craftsman, Trade,” ed. Lothar Coenen, Erich Beyreuther, and Hans Bietenhard, New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1986), 279.]

    But Louw and Nida state that the meaning of the word tekton is simpler,

    There is every reason to believe that in biblical times one who was regarded as a tekton would be skilled in the use of wood and stone and possibly even metal.[Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains. United Bible Societies. 1989. vol. 1, p. 520.]

    Danker and Bauer make the point that tekton usually or primarily referred to a woodworker. Stone mason or metal worker was not the primary meaning.

    “. . . one who constructs, builder or carpenter” and “one who works with wood, in contrast to a worker in bronze.”[Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. University Chicago Press. 1979. p. 995.]

    Balz and Schneider cite many references that indicate the most common meaning of the Greek word tekton in the time of Christ was a carpenter. They state,

    Τέκτων refers to “one who makes, produces” (Latin faber), esp. when referring to woodworking (cf. Homer Il. 6.315; Plato R x.597d; Josephus Ant. xv.390; τέκτων ξύλων και τέκτων λίθων, 2 Kgdms 5:11; cf. 1 Christian 22:15; τέκτων και ἀρχιτέκτων, Sir 38:27)[ Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament. Eerdmans Publishing. 1993. vol. 3., 342.]

    Moulton and Milligan, referring to tekton, agree with this comment,

    The ordinary limitation of this word to “a worker in wood,” “a carpenter,” as in Mat 13:55, Mk 6:3, is supported by P Fay 110 (A.D. 94).[ Vocabulary of the Greek Testament. Hendrickson Publishers. 1997. pp. 628-629.]

    Then the authors continue to provide numerous references from the papyri to support this conclusion.

    Their conclusion is also supported by the early church father Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165). He gives strong reason to believe that Joseph and Jesus were carpenters.

    And when Jesus came to the Jordan, He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes…)[ Dialogue With Trypho. 88. Roberts and Donaldson. Ante-Nicene Fathers. Hendrickson Publishers. 1995. p. 244.]

    Justin Martyr, who lived very close to the time of Christ, understood that Jesus was a carpenter.

    Conclusion:

    If Justin Martyr is correct, then Joseph and Jesus were primarily carpenters and as Lou and Nida have stated they probably also worked with masonry and metal in order to make items of wood. Many modern woodworkers also have secondary skills in masonry and metal since items constructed primarily of wood often have parts made of metal or stone or must be secured to something else with metal or stone.

    Whatever skills Joseph and Jesus had they were hard working men. They were laborers and not men of the aristocracy. Most likely their primary skill was that of a carpenter as evidenced by the historical data above. John Nolland in his commentary on Matthew provides the best conclusion,

    A carpenter (τέκτων) was typically a woodworking craftsman who built furniture and utensils, doors, and door frames, and prepared roofing beams; he may at times have doubled as a brick mason.[ The Gospel of Matthew. The New International Greek Testament Commentary. Paternoster Press. 2005. p. 575.]



    There is neither freedom nor unity for any nation unless it truly lives "under God."

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner truth View Post
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    Well, in the long run, it matters not what Joseph did for a living.
    well Sir, that may be true unless the prophets misrepresented it or unless the Scriptures are wrong and then it matters a whole lot to those of us like me who believe in the inerrency of the Scriptures which is not to say that I have to understand everything in the Scriptures. There are some of us who simply don't believe the Scriptures can be a "little bit" wrong.....that would sort of be like a "little bit pregnant"...........mac (hmm, looks like I may have just made up a word up there....oh well, you know what I mean....
    Last edited by mac; July 30th, 2020 at 11:52 PM.
    Live as if you were living a second time, and as though you had acted wrongly the first time.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
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    Perhaps this will help settle the issue:

    Verlyn D. Verbrugge explains that tekton could refer to a carpenter, stone mason or metallurgist in classical Greek as well as in the Old and New Testaments. Here are two quotes that introduce the meaning of this word.

    In cl. Greek tekton means a craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal. Though carpenter is the common rendering here, tekton can also mean mason . . .[New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. Zondervan Publishing. 2000. p. 558.]

    J. I. Packer also states that tekton means ? craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal.?[?Carpenter, Builder, Workman, Craftsman, Trade,? ed. Lothar Coenen, Erich Beyreuther, and Hans Bietenhard, New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1986), 279.]

    But Louw and Nida state that the meaning of the word tekton is simpler,

    There is every reason to believe that in biblical times one who was regarded as a tekton would be skilled in the use of wood and stone and possibly even metal.[Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains. United Bible Societies. 1989. vol. 1, p. 520.]

    Danker and Bauer make the point that tekton usually or primarily referred to a woodworker. Stone mason or metal worker was not the primary meaning.

    ?. . . one who constructs, builder or carpenter? and ?one who works with wood, in contrast to a worker in bronze.?[Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. University Chicago Press. 1979. p. 995.]

    Balz and Schneider cite many references that indicate the most common meaning of the Greek word tekton in the time of Christ was a carpenter. They state,

    Τέκτων refers to ?one who makes, produces? (Latin faber), esp. when referring to woodworking (cf. Homer Il. 6.315; Plato R x.597d; Josephus Ant. xv.390; τέκτων ξύλων και τέκτων λίθων, 2 Kgdms 5:11; cf. 1 Christian 22:15; τέκτων και ἀρχιτέκτων, Sir 38:27)[ Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament. Eerdmans Publishing. 1993. vol. 3., 342.]

    Moulton and Milligan, referring to tekton, agree with this comment,

    The ordinary limitation of this word to ?a worker in wood,? ?a carpenter,? as in Mat 13:55, Mk 6:3, is supported by P Fay 110 (A.D. 94).[ Vocabulary of the Greek Testament. Hendrickson Publishers. 1997. pp. 628-629.]

    Then the authors continue to provide numerous references from the papyri to support this conclusion.

    Their conclusion is also supported by the early church father Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165). He gives strong reason to believe that Joseph and Jesus were carpenters.

    And when Jesus came to the Jordan, He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes?)[ Dialogue With Trypho. 88. Roberts and Donaldson. Ante-Nicene Fathers. Hendrickson Publishers. 1995. p. 244.]

    Justin Martyr, who lived very close to the time of Christ, understood that Jesus was a carpenter.

    Conclusion:

    If Justin Martyr is correct, then Joseph and Jesus were primarily carpenters and as Lou and Nida have stated they probably also worked with masonry and metal in order to make items of wood. Many modern woodworkers also have secondary skills in masonry and metal since items constructed primarily of wood often have parts made of metal or stone or must be secured to something else with metal or stone.

    Whatever skills Joseph and Jesus had they were hard working men. They were laborers and not men of the aristocracy. Most likely their primary skill was that of a carpenter as evidenced by the historical data above. John Nolland in his commentary on Matthew provides the best conclusion,

    A carpenter (τέκτων) was typically a woodworking craftsman who built furniture and utensils, doors, and door frames, and prepared roofing beams; he may at times have doubled as a brick mason.[ The Gospel of Matthew. The New International Greek Testament Commentary. Paternoster Press. 2005. p. 575.]
    Thank you, Sir. QED.....mac
    Live as if you were living a second time, and as though you had acted wrongly the first time.

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  9. #47
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    Saw a thing on TV where almost 70% of Americans are now afraid to voice their opinions on things because of fear of being... castigated.

    This is part of the liberal plan. To discourage logical intercourse and shout down opposing ideas. About the only place that folks can voice an opinion and keep it private, in order to prevent being called a knuckle dragger, is at the voting booth. Now... How can they possibly get rid of that pesky voting booth? Oh, yeah, lets do mail in voting.

    And this will be the next big point they try and force down American throats. They, the democrats, are all about voter suppression. Which makes me wonder why blacks and Latinos do not protest as much about. Like they have not got enough brains or common sense to get some sort of voter ID. Talk about the soft prejudice of low expectations.. So what... Are minorities little children who need extra help voicing an opinion at the polling booth? Try telling them that.
    We have met the enemy and he is us... POGO

  10. #48
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    People known as "White" make up 11.5% of the global population. 40.42% of the U.S. Population.

    So what is a minority again? Does the definition only fit when another group is in a "white" minority country? Even though their global population numbers are bigger?


    It's cute when the word "minority" is thrown around.
    Last edited by Grasshopperglock; July 31st, 2020 at 12:47 PM.

  11. #49
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    Reminds me of Detroit Michigan being named the most diverse city in America... My wife is from Detroit and the last time we went there, many moons ago, the people we saw were either Lebanese or Black.

    We wanted to get a hotel room, but didn't book one mainly because the place that had rooms resembled a Turkish Bath house and nobody spoke English to take our money and get us a room. Diverse my ass.

    Sort of like Killeen and HH... I sometimes go outside to just look at the number of cars going down the street and I notice that most of them have blacks in them. On a regular basis it is about 20 to one black to white. I suppose that is due to the large number of military and businesses that are located here. Still, the people go where there is opportunity, and that is fine. Same thing with homes here. The area is very "diverse" if you consider blacks outnumbering whites as a result of diversity. To me, the definition of diversity would mean a mix of all different types of races. But then, I may be wrong, since wrong is confused with right any more.
    We have met the enemy and he is us... POGO

  12. #50
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    Life is so much simpler if one just does not GAS about people's skin hues. The color of a person's skin, when you get right down to it, has nothing to do with who that person is. Good people come in all hues, as do bad people. The old proverb applies: You can't judge a book by its cover. Neither can you judge people by the color of their skin.



    There is neither freedom nor unity for any nation unless it truly lives "under God."

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