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Thread: To Be or Not to Be

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by txswimmer View Post
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    Good question.......... If a man beats his wife severely, what is she too do? Some Christians say keep the marriage. Some say divorce is more than acceptable. You tell me - when is it godly to divorce? When is it ungodly?
    As to divorce, Jesus has already spoken clearly in that regard. "I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery (Matthew 5:32)." So the issue is not divorce but rather what one does thereafter.

    No Christian community that I am aware of would require a spouse to remain under the roof of an abusive spouse. That would not be safe for the spouses and not safe for the children. The thing that needs to be looked at is the marriage itself.

    If it is simply a civil event undertaken before a JP or such, then it's not even a marriage in the Biblical sense of the term and such a couple is free to split at any time for any reason with the courts determining the distribution of assets and disposition of children.

    If the couple entered into a covenant relationship by taking valid vows before God, then they can, for good reason, live apart from each other even through civil legal divorce, but they remain under the bond of that vow and thus are not free to marry or have sexual relations with another without being answerable to God for the sin of adultery.
    Last edited by Ludwig; March 3rd, 2020 at 4:15 PM.
    "A boy cannot become a girl and a man cannot become a woman, not even if he shuts his eyes and wishes really hard."



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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
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    As to divorce, Jesus has already spoken clearly in that regard. "I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery (Matthew 5:32)." So the issue is not divorce but rather what one does thereafter.

    No Christian community that I am aware of would require a spouse to remain under the roof of an abusive spouse. That would not be safe for the spouses and not safe for the children. The thing that needs to be looked at is the marriage itself.

    If it is simply a civil event undertaken before a JP or such, then it's not even a marriage in the Biblical sense of the term and such a couple is free to split at any time for any reason with the courts determining the distribution of assets and disposition of children.

    If the couple entered into a covenant relationship by taking valid vows before God, then they can, for good reason, live apart from each other even through civil legal divorce, but they remain under the bond of that vow and thus are not free to marry or have sexual relations with another without being answerable to God for the sin of adultery.
    yep, agree completely..........mac
    Live as if you were living a second time, and as though you had acted wrongly the first time.

  4. #23
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    Some faiths consider a wedding in the church to be more holy and/or sacrosanct, than a wedding held in the office of a Justice of the Peace. And groups like the Jesus Christ Church of Latter-Day Saints (the Mormons) have a "tier" above a church wedding--a wedding in a Mormon Temple.
    I'm guessing that a church means that the ceremony took place "in the eyes of the Lord", whereas a wedding administered by a JP is...well, God was busy "being" at all of the church weddings out there...

    There was a story several years ago in Fort Worth about a man who left the Catholic seminary just before he was to be brought into the priesthood (my brain slipped, and couldn't think of the correct word for it...sort of like "graduation", but not.) to marry a young woman. Marriage took place in a JP's office, They had a daughter together, but the marriage later failed (her infidelity...), and then the wife died of cancer. The man, after some introspection on what to do with his life, he decided to rejoin the Catholic priesthood. The diocese contacted the higher-ups on what to do, and it was eventually decided to let the man become a priest, based on his past seminary, Just a few things left to do. The Catholic Church "decided" that since the man's wedding was not in a Catholic Church, then he was almost as good as not being married in the first place?
    "Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says." 'Argument Clinic', Monty Python's Flying Circus

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
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    As to divorce, Jesus has already spoken clearly in that regard. "I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery (Matthew 5:32)." So the issue is not divorce but rather what one does thereafter.

    No Christian community that I am aware of would require a spouse to remain under the roof of an abusive spouse. That would not be safe for the spouses and not safe for the children. The thing that needs to be looked at is the marriage itself.

    If it is simply a civil event undertaken before a JP or such, then it's not even a marriage in the Biblical sense of the term and such a couple is free to split at any time for any reason with the courts determining the distribution of assets and disposition of children.

    If the couple entered into a covenant relationship by taking valid vows before God, then they can, for good reason, live apart from each other even through civil legal divorce, but they remain under the bond of that vow and thus are not free to marry or have sexual relations with another without being answerable to God for the sin of adultery.
    And the doctrine of the Roman Catholic community is clear......

    Here is an Episcopalian's view:

    CANON 19: Of Regulations Respecting Holy Matrimony: Concerning Preservation of Marriage, Dissolution of Marriage, and Remarriage
    Sec. 1. When marital unity is imperiled by dissension, it shall be the duty, if possible, of either or both parties, before taking legal action, to lay the matter before a Member of the Clergy; it shall be the duty of such Member of the Clergy to act first to protect and promote the physical and emotional safety of those involved and only then, if it be possible, to labor that the parties may be reconciled.

    We allow for divorce and remarriage, knowing that the issue of when to stay in a marriage or dissolve it is one that has no simple answer.

    Interesting that Jimmy Carter said that he was guilty of adultery, because he "lusted in his heart". So, could Rosalyn divorce him?

    Does God really want a woman to stay within the bonds of marriage at the hands of a tyrant? For some, I guess that is their belief. Just not mine.

  6. #25
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    Once had an old Baptist buddy who had a philosophy about this. He said he has seen women who he thought were "handsome ladies" but that anything past that was probably going to get him in trouble with the Lord.

    I have found that to be a good philosophy over the years.
    If you do not read the news you are uninformed. If you do you are misinformed. Mark Twain


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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnatsum View Post
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    ...The Catholic Church "decided" that since the man's wedding was not in a Catholic Church, then he was almost as good as not being married in the first place?
    The decision that such a marriage is not valid was not made based on this particular case. JP marriage has never been equivalent of the sacrament of matrimony. The marriage was not an issue anyway since the spouse had died.
    "A boy cannot become a girl and a man cannot become a woman, not even if he shuts his eyes and wishes really hard."



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  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
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    JP marriage has never been equivalent of the sacrament of matrimony.
    even if it's consumated?......mac

    was the marriage 'tween Mary and Joseph equivalent to your "sacrament of matrimony"? Some real smart people say that their wedding was officiated and completed by a JP...............(and no, I do not mean Jewish Priest).....mac
    Last edited by mac; March 4th, 2020 at 8:20 PM.
    Live as if you were living a second time, and as though you had acted wrongly the first time.

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by txswimmer View Post
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    Does God really want a woman to stay within the bonds of marriage at the hands of a tyrant?
    no sir, he only wants her to subject herself to him...........but failing that, to separate herself from the tyrant.....that's a whole lot different than "divorce".....mac
    Live as if you were living a second time, and as though you had acted wrongly the first time.

  12. #29
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    Hitler and his fellow Nazis also had a God-like gift. They could see that the Nazi Revolution in Germany was “on the right side of history.” And if you lived in Germany in the 1930s, you’d have had a hard time disagreeing with this, so overwhelming was the endorsement given to the Nazi Revolution by Germany’s great progressive propaganda machine (GPPM) – that is to say, Germany’s press, universities, and entertainment industry.

    Likewise, America’s current GPPM has given its overwhelming endorsement to same-sex marriage, not to mention its overwhelming endorsement of abortion and, more recently, transgenderism.

    In fact, of course, nobody can see the remote future (not even, I suspect, those many people who are telling us exactly what will happen 100 years from now due to climate change). Our American cultural elites were not currently passing through an era (temporary I hope) of cultural madness.

    If we want to know the difference between right and wrong, I humbly suggest that we use two old-fashioned ways of doing so. We might listen (a) to the voice of Divine Revelation or (b) to the voice of the moral law within us (often called the natural law). If we listen hard we will hear both of them telling us that same-sex marriage among many other things is not only wrong, but preposterously wrong.
    Last edited by Ludwig; March 6th, 2020 at 2:08 PM.
    "A boy cannot become a girl and a man cannot become a woman, not even if he shuts his eyes and wishes really hard."



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