concealed handgun classes

[Imagine]

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Well, that would be a reasonable compromise. At least at smaller schools. At larger schools, it would depend on how many select teachers would be armed. I would refer you back to my stated goal of one or more guns per primary exit. (My high school, similar in size to Columbine, had over a dozen major exits - that is exits off of hallways through double doors, most through multiple double doors)

Same here as far as doors to the building go. and my classroom is almost right inside one of the outside doors. Compromise as to principal and select AP's being armed may be the way to go. As to teachers: how to decide which teachers would be allowed to bring weapons. I can think of two that I would be very uncomfortable around knowing or wondering if they were armed.

[Yve]

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However, I would be comfortable with requiring the building principal and at least two assistant principals to be licensed and armed, along with allowing a select number of teachers to also be licensed and armed.

bbh--I would be very comfortable with your principal being armed. He's a hunter and he's grown up with guns but hasn't killed anyone (that I know of) yet. He's also very level-headed. He also was out and about during morning duty--talking with the kids, parents and staff. He was a very visible presence on our campus and a non-threatening one, which means he gained the trust of staff. I've also seen him put his "game face" on at a moment's notice, so I know he's not afraid to confront tough situations. I think he would be right on scene if something happened and I would trust his judgement.

My principal is another issue. I would NOT be comfortable with my principal or either of my AP's holding a concealed weapon on campus. I don't have confidence that they would be in the right place at the right time. Given the head games and intimidation used by some of my current admin, I would hate to have them have to hold a weapon as a part of their job knowing that they already violate the trust of their staff with simple words and deeds. Before I trust their judgement with a weapon, I need reason to trust their judgment in other areas.
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My problem with all of this is that there seems to be an underlying assumption that because one holds a license and takes a class, that they are safe and qualified to defend the rest of us. We have incidents where police have abused their trust and ignored their training and I'm sure their training is waaaaaay more extensive than a one day class for the CHL license. I'm sure if anyone cares to search it out, there are many incidents where poor judgement was exhibited by a CHL holder that resulted in a weapon being unsecured, or a weapon being misused. Does it happen a lot? I sure hope not, but I think it is irresponsible to ignore the possibility and the impact it would have in a school environment. I'm glad you want to put my life in the hands of so many by increasing the number of weapons in my work place. I would still be much more comfortable with police or security who are dedicated to the safety of the campus as their primary job.

Just curious--at least one of you who supports this also frequently posted news articles of teachers who hit a student when she felt threatened, teachers who allegedly did or said unprofessional things to their students, and the frequent sex offender educators who make the news. You admittedly have pointed out that not every educator is trustworthy or exhibits good judgement--would you like the same armed in masse? BTW, most of these would probably pass through qualifications to get a weapon since most were "considered" to be law abiding prior to the incident that made the news. All were fingerprinted and made whatever cuts necessary to be placed in the classroom as a "highly qualified" educator.

[Imagine]

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My response was not responding to your discomfort, mine was in response to the postings of links to those known to twist statistics.

(For instance, a 20 year old thug in the commission of a crime, killed by a cop, was listed as "child, murdered by handgun")

I rather think the links posted you are referring to are ones I posted from the children's defense league. My intent is NOT to make anyone uncomfortable. I posted that in response to another person who challenged me to come up with statistics. I do not want to inflame emotions or to disparage or insult people that I don't agree with yet [and may never agree with]; for all I know you and I teach at the same school. I want to find facts to support either and/or both sides of this issue because I am truly torn as to what is best. I also teach at a high school in Killeen (with LOTS of doors that stand open constantly..the security vestibules are essentially window-dressing), and I have 4 grandchildren that I worry about: 2 grade school, one kindergarten, and one preschool.

Plus, I'm no hero; I freely admit that I worry about myself too. I have been threatened several times by high school students; I know of other teachers who have been threatened by students and parents.

A couple of my students have asked me during shelter-in-place drills what I would do if a gunman came in our room; realistically, the only 100% truthful answer I would be able to give them is "PRAY." Anything else would be by the grace of God or caused by my own shortcomings.

For me, for now: I will never have a gun in my possession, and I am still uncomfortable with the idea of armed people on campus except for trained law enforcement professionals.

[mac]

yve: what you seem to want is an "iron clad guarantee"....but that just ain't gonna happen. you just have to try to get as close to it as you can but you'll never get there.....any endeavor with people involved will allways have it's weaknesses, quirks and maniacs....

i would think you would want to ask yourself the question "are my kiddos and i safer in a building that everyone knows has no guns in it or are they safer in a building where folks know that some teachers or staff may be carrying concealed weapons?....mac

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bbh--I would be very comfortable with your principal being armed. He's a hunter and he's grown up with guns but hasn't killed anyone (that I know of) yet. He's also very level-headed. He also was out and about during morning duty--talking with the kids, parents and staff. He was a very visible presence on our campus and a non-threatening one, which means he gained the trust of staff. I've also seen him put his "game face" on at a moment's notice, so I know he's not afraid to confront tough situations. I think he would be right on scene if something happened and I would trust his judgement.

My principal is another issue. I would NOT be comfortable with my principal or either of my AP's holding a concealed weapon on campus. I don't have confidence that they would be in the right place at the right time. Given the head games and intimidation used by some of my current admin, I would hate to have them have to hold a weapon as a part of their job knowing that they already violate the trust of their staff with simple words and deeds. Before I trust their judgement with a weapon, I need reason to trust their judgment in other areas.
________________________________________

My problem with all of this is that there seems to be an underlying assumption that because one holds a license and takes a class, that they are safe and qualified to defend the rest of us. We have incidents where police have abused their trust and ignored their training and I'm sure their training is waaaaaay more extensive than a one day class for the CHL license. I'm sure if anyone cares to search it out, there are many incidents where poor judgement was exhibited by a CHL holder that resulted in a weapon being unsecured, or a weapon being misused. Does it happen a lot? I sure hope not, but I think it is irresponsible to ignore the possibility and the impact it would have in a school environment. I'm glad you want to put my life in the hands of so many by increasing the number of weapons in my work place. I would still be much more comfortable with police or security who are dedicated to the safety of the campus as their primary job.

Just curious--at least one of you who supports this also frequently posted news articles of teachers who hit a student when she felt threatened, teachers who allegedly did or said unprofessional things to their students, and the frequent sex offender educators who make the news. You admittedly have pointed out that not every educator is trustworthy or exhibits good judgement--would you like the same armed in masse? BTW, most of these would probably pass through qualifications to get a weapon since most were "considered" to be law abiding prior to the incident that made the news. All were fingerprinted and made whatever cuts necessary to be placed in the classroom as a "highly qualified" educator.

[sojourner truth]

The other factor is the "what if" factor. "If I had a gun, would my children have been better off?" I keep thinking of Sasanna Gratia-Hupp whos mom and dad were kileed in the Lubys shoootings. She had a gun in the car but left it there in order to obey the law. That was prior to conceal/carry. She was central in conceiving our current gun laws in Texas. "If" is a terrible thing to live with.

Ask yourself..What "IF" the principal of Sandy Hook had had a gun?

There is a terrible balance here to consider. What is best for the kids? What is uncomfortable with the teachers? Questions that need real answers before some one else has to deal with "WHAT IF".

[bbh]

IF I could set the policy, I would insist that all school personnel who are designated to carry go through extensive law-enforcement type training, not just your average licensing. Admittedly, I don't know what the answer is for having someone designated who is not acceptable to other faculty personnel. Maybe there should be some anonymous avenue in which to express concerns regarding that person.

Yve, you are right that I'm fortunate to have a principal like David Manley who is unquestionably trustworthy. In fact, I've only had three principals in my teaching career -- Corbett Lawler, Ralph Bray, and David Manley. I would be totally confident that any of them would handle a dangerous situation in the best way humanly possible. I'm so sad for you that you aren't able to have a principal now whom you can trust. There should not be a single principal in this District whom the staff cannot trust.

[siamcat]

While I can understand a certain amount of unease at knowing that some of your colleagues carry a concealed weapon not being allowed to carry on campus does not stop a person determined to do harm to carry a weapon onto the campus and start shooting. It could be a parent, a student, a teacher, a custodian, pretty much anybody who enters campus. For all you know some teachers already carry (yes they would be breaking the law). Unless you make every person go through a metal detector (some plastic guns probably make it through) you have no idea who is or is not carrying.
Having teachers and staff be able to carry a concealed weapon if they so choose gives them the opportunity to fight back, hopefully stopping the person wanting to do harm.

You could have a special liscense to carry in schools that requires more training and a psych eval.

[Grammar Rules]

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I do not want to inflame emotions or to disparage or insult people that I don't agree with yet [and may never agree with]; for all I know you and I teach at the same school.

(Preceding post by Imagine was addressed to Mestral)

I will be surprised if the subject of posting more cops in schools and possibly allowing licensed teachers to carry does not come up at a Board meeting in the near future.

This forum generally has about as many non-member "guest" viewers as members, some of whom may be Board members, influential community members, and administrators. Some of these will be at least interested in weighing the opinions and arguments of some of the teachers here.

Not everyone who posts in this section is a teacher. Mestral is not, nor is mac, nor is Sojourner. Their opinions as citizens and taxpayers are as valid as anyone's but please be aware that some of those here come with a different viewpoint.

[Yve]

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I also teach at a high school in Killeen (with LOTS of doors that stand open constantly..the security vestibules are essentially window-dressing), and I have 4 grandchildren that I worry about: 2 grade school, one kindergarten, and one preschool.

IMHO, before we open up campuses to CHL holders, we should be taking care of those known areas that put our kids at risk. At present, our campus is more secure than it has been since most doors are kept locked and our security vestibule is pretty firmly in place. Even so, kids prop doors so they can get in or allow others in. I've undone more of a few of these little traps and I'm sure there are many I don't know of.

We have shelter in place drills, but not as often as we should. I've only participated in three in my eight year experience with KISD. IMHO, with the movement we have (new teachers, teachers changing rooms, etc.), I think a mock drill during inservice would be a good idea so that teachers can flesh out "what would I do" with their current classroom setup, and then do a regular drill using that plan shortly after school starts. The shelter in place is not as simple as a fire drill since we have to think about how to get kids in the safest part of the room as quickly and quietly as possible--and every room set up is different.

Bottom line is that there are TONS of very practical things we should be doing already to improve campus safety. CHL access is one issue that is a more distant reality. There are things immediately in our power that don't require permission from the governor for us to work on. If we're not starting there, again, I don't have confidence in the coming judgments on other issues.

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Plus, I'm no hero; I freely admit that I worry about myself too. I have been threatened several times by high school students; I know of other teachers who have been threatened by students and parents.

That is an issue that should be addressed too. The best backup I ever had was when one of my admin said to a parent "Do not speak to my teacher that way". On the same campus, a counselor noticed a particular parent coming to my room after the front desk was closed and they make firm and decisive steps to put it to a halt. If we already have teachers harassed by parents and students, then we have a powder keg that needs to be dealt with--before it gets to something more serious. We want weapons to protect, but we haven't dealt with the more minor and easily addressable issues. On my campus, we have a few parents that "go teacher hunting". They are up there for every little complaint, and once in the building after hours, they go wherever they want unescorted.

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A couple of my students have asked me during shelter-in-place drills what I would do if a gunman came in our room; realistically, the only 100% truthful answer I would be able to give them is "PRAY." Anything else would be by the grace of God or caused by my own shortcomings.

I'm with you all the way. I haven't told my students--but then we don't practice this often enough to inspire many questions. I've run the scenario through my mind--and I know what I plan to do--and at this point, that and praying for my kids daily is the best I know how to do.

[Yve]

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yve: what you seem to want is an "iron clad guarantee"....but that just ain't gonna happen. you just have to try to get as close to it as you can but you'll never get there.....any endeavor with people involved will allways have it's weaknesses, quirks and maniacs....

i would think you would want to ask yourself the question "are my kiddos and i safer in a building that everyone knows has no guns in it or are they safer in a building where folks know that some teachers or staff may be carrying concealed weapons?....mac

Maybe knowing some of my staff members has caused concern that they NOT be armed. Ever thought of that?