KISD School Records for the past 9 seasons

[RooDawg]

Since football is right around the corner I thought I would provide the records of the past 9 seasons. I go back 9 seasons because it is the first year that Sam Jones began his head coaching career at Killeen High School.

KHS 65-37 .637 winning percentage 6-5 playoff record

KHS has not had a losing season during the 9 seasons. Their worst record was 5-5 done twice (2005 & 2006). Highest win total in a season was 9 done twice in 2008 & 2009. KHS has been in the playoffs 6 out of the 9 seasons and is currently on a 5 year playoff streak.

EHS 35-60 .389 winning percentage 2-3 playoff record.

EHS has only 3 non-losing seasons during the past 9 years. Had 2 seasons of no wins. Highest win total was in 2006 with 8 wins. EHS made the playoffs 3 out of the 9 seasons.

HHHS 32-60 .348 winning percentage 0-2 playoff record. HHHS has 3 non-losing seasons during the last 9. The highest win total in a season was done in 2004 & 2005 with 6 wins. HHHS has been in the playoffs 2 out of the 9 seasons and made the playoffs last year.

SHS 23-68 .253 winning percentage 0-1 playoff record. SHS has 2 winning seasons during the 9 seasons. The highest win total in a season was done in 2004 & 2005 with 6 wins. SHS made the playoffs in 2008.

[Agent X]

Thank you for compiling and posting this information. This data suggests that the woes of KISD football must have more to do with "coaching" and program expectations than any other factor. Killeen HS faces as many socio-economic challenges as any school in our district yet has managed to put together an impressive record for a 4 high school town. As for the others, all three have a clean slate and we eagerly await the results.

[CenTexDave]

Jones is a good coach and always seems to have them prepared. Longevity pays its dividends.

[onetime]

Thank you for compiling and posting this information. This data suggests that the woes of KISD football must have more to do with "coaching" and program expectations than any other factor. Killeen HS faces as many socio-economic challenges as any school in our district yet has managed to put together an impressive record for a 4 high school town. As for the others, all three have a clean slate and we eagerly await the results.

Well said, they (KISD) took a coach (Sam Jones- coordinator) that had been in the area for nearly a decade and inserted him into the program. I would like to provide full disclosure, KHS was in 4A when it allowed only 3 teams to make the playoffs until about 3 years ago they would have likely been in the playoffs all nine years had that been the exception the entire time. They have also benefited a bit being in a relatively "overall" weak district over the last four seasons. On the other hand the district with Brownwood, Cove, Waco, and Midway prior to that fully made up for it. On the other hand the other 3 schools have been in "overall" districts as well aside from Cove (4 years) and A&M Consol for the longest time. This data suggests that the woes of KISD football must have more to do with "coaching" and program expectations than any other factor. I think this is a chicken or the egg argument, is the athletics here poor due to the coaching or is the coaching poor due to the investment made in the athletics? I think the coaching has been poor at the schools because it is hard to attract smart, energetic coaches that know how to build a program.

[Night Owl]

Who really cares when we have so many students that can't read and write. Can't make decent grades and people are worried about football. Go figure.

[RooDawg]

Who really cares when we have so many students that can't read and write. Can't make decent grades and people are worried about football. Go figure.

since this is a "High School Football" section of the forum I would suggest that NO you are correct...people here (in this particular section of the forum) are worried about football.

[CenTexDave]

Dang, Owl, we know how you feel.
But I seem to recall you ad your expertise on college and NFL football. Where do you think those players learned the game?

[Night Owl]

They learned to play in high school and for many that was the only thing they learned. How many of those college and pro players make a decent living once the game is over? Most are broke soon after leaving the game.

[Night Owl]

since this is a "High School Football" section of the forum I would suggest that NO you are correct...people here (in this particular section of the forum) are worried about football.
I notice that is about all some posters are worried about in this section, and some of those claim to be teachers. Wonder how many posts those teacher/coaches are in the education sections. Not many.

[CenTexDave]

They learned to play in high school and for many that was the only thing they learned. How many of those college and pro players make a decent living once the game is over? Most are broke soon after leaving the game.

That is very true. Just today read that Duante Culpepper, former Vikings QB and played for other teams in the twilight of his career, just had a house foreclosed.
I'm not so sure it's the high school's fault though. Those tough college courses they take certainly don't prepare them.
I remember one guy - forget his name - but he played for Texas Tech prior to Leach's Air Raid offense. Spike Dykes was probably the coach. This guy was a soph or junior, but he lead the NCAA in rushing that year. Couldn't wait for the draft. Wasn't back in school for the Spring Semester because Tech threw him out - had a 0.0 GPA for the Fall Semester. :)
Oh, he was cut in training camp and never played in the NFL. :)):)):))

[xzochye]

They learned to play in high school and for many that was the only thing they learned. How many of those college and pro players make a decent living once the game is over? Most are broke soon after leaving the game.

Many NFL (and other pro sports) players have college degrees. The problem is once they start making the big bucks they no longer think rationally. They have no idea how to handle money and all they want to do is spend spend spend. That is not the high school or college's fault.

[Agent X]

I wonder why NO doth protest so much about high school football, hmmmmmmm? (Play "Blind Man in the Bleachers" in the background)

Hell, I plaid hi skool fotbal and I terned owt Oh k. I mene, I can spel, figger and reed buuks two.

[xzochye]

I notice that is about all some posters are worried about in this section, and some of those claim to be teachers. Wonder how many posts those teacher/coaches are in the education sections. Not many.

I'm not curious enough to do the research but I bet most, if not all, of the teachers that have commented on football have also commented in the KISD and/or general Ed section.

Why shouldn't people, teachers or not, be mostly concerned about high school football in the high school football section? That is what this thread is about.

[xzochye]

I wonder why NO doth protest so much about high school football, hmmmmmmm? (Play "Blind Man in the Bleachers" in the background)

Hell, I plaid hi skool fotbal and I terned owt Oh k. I mene, I can spel, figger and reed buuks two.

Hahaha! Good one! The "buuks two" took me a second!!

[Agent X]

High school football is a big deal in Texas. I'm all for it. I like highly paid coaches that aren't over-burdened with teaching responsibilities, million-dollar weight rooms, the smell of Astroplay and jumbotrons.............oh wow, just woke up and was having a dream that I was Jack Welch.......I hope I wasn't talking in my sleep. :))

[sickofpc]

You experts are something else....Sam does a great job, no doubt, but has he been lacking in talent? No. Has HH had near the talent since Rogers left? No..not even close. Has Ellison had great athletes since the days of Harris and all of the athletes of that era? No..no comparison in talent levels. Would SHS have had the same history if Showers had never been hurt? No.
Do the coaches in KISD have the control, backing, and authority that Welch has in CC? No. Just saying... I guess, also, that I just remember what it was like when we had two high schools, large, impressive bands, teams that were feared across the state, and a stadium filled with enthusiastic fans on Friday nights.

[Night Owl]

I wonder why NO doth protest so much about high school football, hmmmmmmm? (Play "Blind Man in the Bleachers" in the background)

Hell, I plaid hi skool fotbal and I terned owt Oh k. I mene, I can spel, figger and reed buuks two.
Wonder no more. When I was in high school I played four sports: football, basketball, baseball, and ran track. Loved every minute of it. Now, that I no longer think like a child or try to relive my glory days through others, I am an adult and a taxpayer. I don't see the logic in the dollars that are spent on high school sports, especially football. If the kids were getting a proper education then I could more readily see spending the millions of dollars KISD spends on sports. It comes down to money for books and a scholarly education that benefits the vast majority of students OR seeing money spent on a game. The cherry on top is the millions spent on a press box that the majority of people will never see the inside of because we are not the elite in the community.

I know that some will not agree but that is why I think there should be less of a priority on football and more on academics, but high school football is king in Texas. Such a shame.

And before I forget your reply is typical from a high school jock or wanna be jock. You spell kinda like Earl Campbell. He was a great football player but not close to being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[xzochye]

Wonder no more. When I was in high school I played four sports: football, basketball, baseball, and ran track. Loved every minute of it. Now, that I no longer think like a child or try to relive my glory days through others, I am an adult and a taxpayer. I don't see the logic in the dollars that are spent on high school sports, especially football. If the kids were getting a proper education then I could more readily see spending the millions of dollars KISD spends on sports. It comes down to money for books and a scholarly education that benefits the vast majority of students OR seeing money spent on a game. The cherry on top is the millions spent on a press box that the majority of people will never see the inside of because we are not the elite in the community.

I know that some will not agree but that is why I think there should be less of a priority on football and more on academics, but high school football is king in Texas. Such a shame.

Yay!! I must be among the elite in the community!!! I have seen 2 games from inside of the press box!!!!

[Night Owl]

Yay!! I must be among the elite in the community!!! I have seen 2 games from inside of the press box!!!!
Good for you.

[CenTexDave]

High school football is a big deal in Texas. I'm all for it. I like highly paid coaches that aren't over-burdened with teaching responsibilities, million-dollar weight rooms, the smell of Astroplay and jumbotrons.............oh wow, just woke up and was having a dream that I was Jack Welch.......I hope I wasn't talking in my sleep. :))

Welch doesn't teach. He's the district's athletic director. Cove does not have a million dollar weight room. They don't use Astroplay anymore at Bulldawg Stadium. It's something else - just like just about every other high school stadium in TX uses. I agree that scoreboard was excessive. Was nice, but the idea that advertising would pay for it was a line of garbage sold to the school board to fund it. Many other high schools have the same.

[CenTexDave]

Yay!! I must be among the elite in the community!!! I have seen 2 games from inside of the press box!!!!
I've watched a few with Big Joe Lombardi up in the broadcast booth at the Dawg Pound. Couldn't believe all the food that is delivered up there. :))

[xzochye]

Good for you.

I know! I am very excited to know that I have made it to the elite status!

[Agent X]

I'd like to see a concrete example of just how the funds used for high school sports are denying a good education to any kid that puts forth the effort to gain one.

And Earl Campbell made some dang good sausage!!

And I guess I was kind of a "pseudo jock". I did manage to earn a degree and are doing well with my network marketing and encyclopedia sales.

[onetime]

You experts are something else....Sam does a great job, no doubt, but has he been lacking in talent? No. Has HH had near the talent since Rogers left? No..not even close. Has Ellison had great athletes since the days of Harris and all of the athletes of that era? No..no comparison in talent levels. Would SHS have had the same history if Showers had never been hurt? No.
Do the coaches in KISD have the control, backing, and authority that Welch has in CC? No. Just saying... I guess, also, that I just remember what it was like when we had two high schools, large, impressive bands, teams that were feared across the state, and a stadium filled with enthusiastic fans on Friday nights.

Talent does not make the team, coaching does. Poor coaches can win games when they have good players and will be bad when they have bad players. On the other hand great coaches make the 3rd string kid functional in a game. Killeen was void of skill players about 5 or 6 years ago, every other team in the city had a talented QB. Delgado, North Texas, Griffin Baylor, Heights Southern Miss, SHoemaker had a kid that went Division one. KHS QB did not go anywhere, you can say the same thing about the RBs and so on and so fourth. HHHS had 3 or 4 kids that have gone to UT in the last couple of years CMON!!. Georgetown is a 4a high school with less talented athletes and beat down 5A ellison 27-7.

[CenTexDave]

Georgetown dropped down to 4-A, like Cove did back 7 years ago, and instantly became a state power.
Agree with you that coaching makes all the difference. During Cove's "lean years" (:))) they had talent. They just had crap coaching. James Ritchey, Cove QB from the early 80's, went onto play in the NFL for the Oilers and Browns. Now one kid doesn't make a team, but there were plenty more talented kids that didn't play because of the good, ol' boy system.
I would love to see all 4 Killeen schools become competitive. The entire district would improve, and we might even win a playoff game once in a while.

[bbh]

Talent does not make the team, coaching does.

So.....even if the team has no talent, a good coach will make the playoffs? I learn something new every day.

[CenTexDave]

He didn't say that. But a good coach can win with average talent. Might not make the playoffs, but could win.
But take all the talent in the world and a lousy coach won't do much. He might win a few just based on the kids' athleticism, but when discipline, timing and technique come into play, they'll get toasted.

[bbh]

I agree that a good coach may be able to win with average talent. Onetime said that talent does not make the team, coaching does. I agree that good coaching is absolutely crucial, but so is strong, stable, and dependable talent.

I still think that there are factors at play in KISD that make it more difficult to consistently compete. It seems that many do not want to talk about those factors, or even to acknowledge them. After growing up in Killeen, attending KISD 1st-12th grade, having my children in KISD, and teaching in KISD, I know that those factors are real. Again....we have four high schools through which talent and resources are divided, eleven middle schools which make it difficult to create a successful "feeder system," a transient population, a high percentage of students who routinely have their family lives disrupted by deployments, and a higher percentage of the population living below the poverty level than Cove or Georgetown (two of the programs often used for comparison here). In addition, Bell County has been consistently at/near the top of counties in the state in the highest per capita number of divorces. A high percentage of those divorces come from families whose children attend KISD. Do these factors together impact both sports and academics in KISD? I strongly believe that they do.

Onetime is fond of asking whether factors like salary and facilities affect the decision of coaches looking at KISD for employment. I think it's also fair to ask whether demographic factors like those listed above would enter into a head coach's decision. If you were that potential head coach, which might be more appealing....Georgetown High School or one of the four KISD high schools? I would choose a KISD school because I love KISD, but what would a coach who doesn't have my deep affection for our district do?

I have a feeling some are going to say.....okay, THAT's why we have to pay more and have the best (i.e., most expensive) facilities. If so, the next question is ...... can we afford it? And that still doesn't address the fact that with four high schools, no head coach in KISD is going to have the solid fan base that Georgetown (or Cove) will have.

[CenTexDave]

Very true.
Next time Killeen HS needs a head coach go after the guy who is coaching at Aledo. I forget his name, but he's a former Roo. I remember him saying when Cove played Aledo in the 2006 4-A state semis that "when I was playing for Killeen it was unacceptable to lose to Cove", Cove immediately went out there and stomped Aledo. :)) Beat them next year in the semis also. :)) But then he and Aledo did win the state championship, I believe, 3 consecutive years. (Cove moved back to 5-A :)))

[onetime]

I agree that a good coach may be able to win with average talent. Onetime said that talent does not make the team, coaching does. I agree that good coaching is absolutely crucial, but so is strong, stable, and dependable talent.

I still think that there are factors at play in KISD that make it more difficult to consistently compete. It seems that many do not want to talk about those factors, or even to acknowledge them. After growing up in Killeen, attending KISD 1st-12th grade, having my children in KISD, and teaching in KISD, I know that those factors are real. Again....we have four high schools through which talent and resources are divided, eleven middle schools which make it difficult to create a successful "feeder system," a transient population, a high percentage of students who routinely have their family lives disrupted by deployments, and a higher percentage of the population living below the poverty level than Cove or Georgetown (two of the programs often used for comparison here). In addition, Bell County has been consistently at/near the top of counties in the state in the highest per capita number of divorces. A high percentage of those divorces come from families whose children attend KISD. Do these factors together impact both sports and academics in KISD? I strongly believe that they do.

Onetime is fond of asking whether factors like salary and facilities affect the decision of coaches looking at KISD for employment. I think it's also fair to ask whether demographic factors like those listed above would enter into a head coach's decision. If you were that potential head coach, which might be more appealing....Georgetown High School or one of the four KISD high schools? I would choose a KISD school because I love KISD, but what would a coach who doesn't have my deep affection for our district do?

I have a feeling some are going to say.....okay, THAT's why we have to pay more and have the best (i.e., most expensive) facilities. If so, the next question is ...... can we afford it? And that still doesn't address the fact that with four high schools, no head coach in KISD is going to have the solid fan base that Georgetown (or Cove) will have.

You were trolling on your previous post, but I will address it anyway. A winning tradition is a by product of the coaching staff, of course you need talent to win in football, baseball, basketball, volleyball and so fourth, but a good football staff with average talent will be a poor football staff with exceptional talent.

Strong dependable talent is great to have, but does not guarantee a winning season by any means. Cibolo Steele is in a similar boat as the KISD schools. They split talent with Clemens HS and kids can easily attend Wagner or Converse Judson as well. They have managed to be competitive in a relatively short period of time. Secondly, based on what your saying KHS should have had the worst record amongst the KISD schools in recent history based on what your saying about poverty, single parent households, and military transition. Yet they are 18-3 over the last 7 seasons, you would think there would have to be some type of parody that exists, but they are completely dominating the area. I can not believe that cove has that much talent and so little parody where they are undefeated over last 10-15 years over the KISD schools.

If KISD ever wants to attract quality coaches in any of the sports they are going to have increase the teaching salary as a whole (works the same way with teachers) followed by increasing the coaching stipend. I was told that a high school teacher can earn $1400 dollars for being the person in charge of the crime stoppers program. The fact that an assistant basketball makes a little over thousand dollars more is laughable. Lastly, Georgetown is not the place you grew up hearing about, they have little cities that have sprung up all over the place there its really no different then KISD. You have Cedar PArk, Vista Ridge, Rouse, Leander, Georgetown East View, etc, etc.

[sojourner truth]

I think that earlier idea was a great one...Lets shut down 2 high schools and cram everyone into 2, and then we can have a great football program...Coaches salary would be able to be hiked a bunch too. Plus, there would be plenty of assistant coaches to cove all the bases.

[CenTexDave]

Cedar Park and Leander are little cities??? :))

[bbh]

Since this thread....and others.....have been actively discussing why KISD does not have a better football record, I fail to see why you characterize my thoughts as "trolling," Onetime. In other threads as well as this one, it seems that if someone has a slightly different opinion from yours, they are automatically labeled "a troll" by you.

Before I posted, I researched online demographic information of areas that you have used for comparisons to KISD.....Cove, Belton, Georgetown, etc. I'm not going to post all of that here, but you can do it yourself. I also researched Killeen and, separately Harker Heights, since both are part of KISD. I assumed that Harker Heights would bring up the demos in some aspects (median income, etc), and it did. I factored that in before I posted. I did not look at Nolanville, which I assumed would do little to impact Killeen's overall poverty level, etc. I'll do that when I have time, because (as corgi mentioned) Nolanville does have a couple of newer housing areas that are more upscale.

For example: KISD's median income is approximately $40,000. Georgetown's is $63,000.

KISD poverty level is 23%. Georgetown's is 11%. (In 2000, Killeen's was 16% and Georgetown's was 7%.)

KISD has four high schools. The upcoming school year will be the first time that Georgetown has two full high schools.

KISD is made up of approximately 50% of students whose families are tied to Fort Hood in some way. Georgetown has a more stable population than KISD's transient population.

The divorce rate in KISD that I mentioned is a fact. I can get numbers if you want them.

These are some of the demographics I considered. I was not trolling. I think these factors, and others, impact our students and our athletic program. They are not the only factors.

My argument is that there are factors outside of salaries, facilities, administration "support," and raw talent that impact the athletic programs in KISD and make it different than other districts.

[Yve]

My argument is that there are factors outside of salaries, facilities, administration "support," and raw talent that impact the athletic programs in KISD and make it different than other districts.

This is off topic regarding sports. I have been put off by Muller and a couple of board members who push their agenda with the arguement: "other districts are doing it". We are not like other districts. We need unique solutions for OUR unique problems.


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[cnjbond]

There is a little good news in the fact that DOD is trying to keep servicemembers and their families at duty stations for longer periods of time. This will not only help stabilize the kids academically, but also may allow the spouses to be more marketable for higher paying jobs instead of them having to settle for minimum wage jobs because no one wants to invest money into someone that's going to be here 3 years or less and then up and "take their talents to South Beach!"

[onetime]

So.....even if the team has no talent, a good coach will make the playoffs? I learn something new every day.

This is trolling, but by pointing it out to you I guess I am doing the same.


Since this thread....and others.....have been actively discussing why KISD does not have a better football record, I fail to see why you characterize my thoughts as "trolling," Onetime. In other threads as well as this one, it seems that if someone has a slightly different opinion from yours, they are automatically labeled "a troll" by you.

Before I posted, I researched online demographic information of areas that you have used for comparisons to KISD.....Cove, Belton, Georgetown, etc. I'm not going to post all of that here, but you can do it yourself. I also researched Killeen and, separately Harker Heights, since both are part of KISD. I assumed that Harker Heights would bring up the demos in some aspects (median income, etc), and it did. I factored that in before I posted. I did not look at Nolanville, which I assumed would do little to impact Killeen's overall poverty level, etc. I'll do that when I have time, because (as corgi mentioned) Nolanville does have a couple of newer housing areas that are more upscale.

For example: KISD's median income is approximately $40,000. Georgetown's is $63,000.

KISD poverty level is 23%. Georgetown's is 11%. (In 2000, Killeen's was 16% and Georgetown's was 7%.)

KISD has four high schools. The upcoming school year will be the first time that Georgetown has two full high schools.

KISD is made up of approximately 50% of students whose families are tied to Fort Hood in some way. Georgetown has a more stable population than KISD's transient population.

The divorce rate in KISD that I mentioned is a fact. I can get numbers if you want them.

These are some of the demographics I considered. I was not trolling. I think these factors, and others, impact our students and our athletic program. They are not the only factors.

My argument is that there are factors outside of salaries, facilities, administration "support," and raw talent that impact the athletic programs in KISD and make it different than other districts.

All of the issues you raised are great, the nature of the area is likely one of many reasons why Killeen is suffering in all sports. No one is arguing your point, the perception of the area is right up there as well, but Killeen won in the 90s, advanced to the quarter finals a few years ago, and Ellison advanced to the quarter finals about eight years ago.

KISD will never consistently get quality coaches in any area of sports not because of the divorce rates, transient nature of the area, or poverty level because 2 out 3 of those things occur in so many other places as well. The district will not be able to make a quality hire because of the lack of emphasis in Athletics. You asked if the district could afford, I do not have the answer to that question, but I do know that so many other districts with similar set ups do it and correct me if I am wrong, but they receive a good portion of federal dollars that so many other school districts do not.

I used Georgetown because they went to the state championship game last year. Let me point this out again though and I will use a completely different analogy. When soldiers are picking out the locations they want to live I wonder how many of the soldiers choose Wyoming over Hawaii, or Montana over San Diego. I do not even think its about paying more at this point, they need to at least pay up to par with other areas. Lets not make this solely about coaching either, it effects teachers the same way, young effective teachers will consistently leave the area for greener pastures.

I am going to give the new coach from Heights three years max there, if he wins in the first two years there he will bolt for the next best job, "Feet wet theory". Which is the only reason I felt they should have went with the local guy.

Temple's coordinators do not teach classes, Georgetown is on block scheduling, Belton has an indoor practice facility, Cove has a gigantic weight room, allllllll of them pay more.

[bbh]

KHS won State when it was a two-school district. And Temple, Georgetown, Belton, and Cove have all been one-school districts while winning.

Are you saying that if our coordinators don't teach, we go back on block scheduling (which was a nightmare for AP classes), we build each school an indoor practice facility and large weight room, and pay our coaches more.....all four schools will have winning seasons? What would be the cost of that?

Could you please post for me what each coach at our four high schools makes, along with the salaries of Temple, Georgetown, Belton, and Cove coaches?

[sojourner truth]

Ooooh...do you really want to know those figures?

Like I said, just put us back to 2 schools, and we'll have a surefire winner in there. That should solve all those football problems. Oh, and don't forget those decent salaries either....

[bbh]

Yep, I really do. I'm trying to figure out how much more we need to pay our coaches so that we can be competitive with other area districts. I think that RooDawg gave some some figures on another thread....I need to go look for that....but I don't know what those other districts pay. And I'm not sure which districts have a separate Athletic Director and which ones have their head football coach also serve as AD because that would be a factor...not that we could do that with a district as large as ours. I'd also like to know what percentage of each district's budget goes for their athletics programs. The fact that our district has grown so much, causing us to constantly have to build new schools and enlarge others, we can't necessarily spend as large a percentage as districts where their population is more stable. A district like Georgetown, for instance, has grown in population but a lot of that growth has come from an older demographic. They are bringing in additional revenue in property taxes but not necessarily an exponential growth in student population.

I had heard that KISD had TASB (I think it was TASB) do a study this last year to see what we needed to do to bring teachers' salaries in line with comparable districts. I thought I was told at the time that there was not a marked disparity in coach's salaries, so I'm confused.

Mostly, I would just like to know what all of this costs so that we can see where we stand and how much KISD can afford.

[onetime]

Yep, I really do. I'm trying to figure out how much more we need to pay our coaches so that we can be competitive with other area districts. I think that RooDawg gave some some figures on another thread....I need to go look for that....but I don't know what those other districts pay. And I'm not sure which districts have a separate Athletic Director and which ones have their head football coach also serve as AD because that would be a factor...not that we could do that with a district as large as ours. I'd also like to know what percentage of each district's budget goes for their athletics programs. The fact that our district has grown so much, causing us to constantly have to build new schools and enlarge others, we can't necessarily spend as large a percentage as districts where their population is more stable. A district like Georgetown, for instance, has grown in population but a lot of that growth has come from an older demographic. They are bringing in additional revenue in property taxes but not necessarily an exponential growth in student population.

I had heard that KISD had TASB (I think it was TASB) do a study this last year to see what we needed to do to bring teachers' salaries in line with comparable districts. I thought I was told at the time that there was not a marked disparity in coach's salaries, so I'm confused.

Mostly, I would just like to know what all of this costs so that we can see where we stand and how much KISD can afford.


Your questions are what makes these discussions so difficult, your asking for an apple to apple comparison when it is not that simple, but with that said has KISD ever had these discussions? Your asking what percentage of district funds get spent on athletics which is great, but you have been told that the facilities at two of the high schools are going on 30 years, without any type of improvement. If you graduated in the late 80s or early 90s and you can walk in and say that not much has changed around here aside from new paint then that is a problem. Also your making it about salary and that honestly is not the main issue, more so an incentive if you will to get and keep solid employees. Although it is not competitive with larger districts in the state of Texas.

[bbh]

Your questions are what makes these discussions so difficult, your asking for an apple to apple comparison when it is not that simple, but with that said has KISD ever had these discussions? Your asking what percentage of district funds get spent on athletics which is great, but you have been told that the facilities at two of the high schools are going on 30 years, without any type of improvement. If you graduated in the late 80s or early 90s and you can walk in and say that not much has changed around here aside from new paint then that is a problem. Also your making it about salary and that honestly is not the main issue, more so an incentive if you will to get and keep solid employees. Although it is not competitive with larger districts in the state of Texas.

I'm not the one who brought up these issues, Onetime. I'm not asking a single question about an "apple" that you didn't first bring into the conversation, and frankly, (IMO) your posts are what makes these discussions difficult. Who can tell what you want KISD to do or not do? I've tried, but you refuse to offer specific remedies, so I still don't know. When I ask, you don't answer. You have alleged that KISD cannot attract good coaches, which I think is a direct insult to the coaches we have had, currently have, and will have...but that's your opinion. You have said that we don't pay competitive salaries. I ask what competitive means to you, but you don't answer. You have said that KISD does not support athletics. I ask how we can better support athletics, but you don't answer. You have thrown in the names of other districts; I ask how they are competitive and we are not, but you don't answer. I ask what it would take in dollars and improvements to bring facilities up to your standards, but you don't answer. I point out differences we have with other districts, and you say I'm trolling.

After all of this, I don't have a clue what you want and expect. Maybe if you were able to express what you mean more clearly, we might find some areas of agreement, but I don't think that's going to happen, so I'm done.

The best I can tell.....you just want to slam KISD with generalities and no specificity. And you expect no one to either question or disagree with you.

Go for it. Have fun.

[Night Owl]

Onetime doesnt have a clue as can be seen from his posts. He just wants to complain and expects everyone to agree with him. I have asked many times how much KISD spends on sports and no one has answered. So now I just make it a point that athletics spends too much money and never gets a return on that investment. If I was a coach here I would keep real quiet and keep raking in the extra money because if anyone with a lick of financial sense looked close they would fire 90% of the current coaches. If they aren't putting a winning team on the field then they need to find another line of work.

[onetime]

Killeen isd is the 25th largest school district in the state of Texas

Starting pay for a Teacher/Football/Basketball coach $49,500

A ten year coach at Killeen ISd that is now an assistant varsity coach would make $52,800



Clear Creek ISD is the 26th largest school district in the state of Texas

Starting pay for a Teacher/Football/Basketball coach $52K

A ten year coach at Clear Creek ISd that is now an assistant varsity coach would make $58,600

Mesquite ISD is the 27th largest school district in the state of Texas

Starting pay for a Teacher/Football/Basketball coach, they did not have this info listed but the starting pay for teachers is $48,500.

Killeen is the states largest recipient of impact aid ad 56 million dollars a sixth of their overall budget, a lot of schools do not even get a scratch of this money. The overall budget is 352,500 Million, athletics is lumped in with extracurricular activities that range from choir and band down to football. The district uses 7.5 million dollars towards extracurricular, I believe that is 2% of the total budget. I would assume that athletics eats about 1.25 percent of that total budget amongst "all' of the athletic programs middle and high school.

I will continue to add to this

[bbh]

Mesquite tax rate: 1.42
Clear Creek tax rate: 1.36
Killeen ISD tax rate: 1.13

KISD receives that Federal Impact Aid because we are charged with educating thousands of Ft. Hood-related students whose parents do not pay KISD property taxes. (Those who do own property, of course, pay those taxes.) Other districts do not get Impact Aid because they do not have the responsibility for educating those students.

(I'm finding interesting data on:

http://public-school-districts.findthedata.org

You can search individual school districts and find lots of data. It appears at first glance that KISD has considerably less debt than either Mesquite ISD or Clear Creek ISD, but I'll have to look more closely at it later.

[RooDawg]

If I was a coach here I would keep real quiet and keep raking in the extra money because if anyone with a lick of financial sense looked close they would fire 90% of the current coaches. If they aren't putting a winning team on the field then they need to find another line of work.

I have to admit that this is the first thing NO has said about KISD athletics that I agree with. It also includes one of the past problems that was demonstrative to prove that KISD didn't care about athletics. They would let coaches, who were not winning, hang around.

Also, to help out the discussion of what the coaches make. I have posted the link to find the stipends for assistant coaches below. This is coming from the KISD website under employment, compensation, and stipends. It will list the different stipends within the district from athletics to extra-curricular activities including UIL academic stipends.

Also listed below from the KISD website, employment, compensation, and 2013-2014 pay ranges, it shows that the Campus Athletics Coordinators, head football coaches, at each school is an AP7 which starts at the minimum daily rate of $332.30. The midrange is $390.94 and the max is $449.58. The contracts run a full year which means that their duty days are around 255 days.

That makes the minimum pay for a KISD head football coach as $84,736.50. The midrange salary is $99,689.70 and the maximum salary would be $114,642.90.

https://www.killeenisd.org/departmentDocs/c734/documents/KISDStipends.pdf

https://www.killeenisd.org/departmentDocs/c734/documents/PayRanges20132014.pdf

[Bob_Popular]

Onetime doesnt have a clue as can be seen from his posts. He just wants to complain and expects everyone to agree with him. I have asked many times how much KISD spends on sports and no one has answered. So now I just make it a point that athletics spends too much money and never gets a return on that investment. If I was a coach here I would keep real quiet and keep raking in the extra money because if anyone with a lick of financial sense looked close they would fire 90% of the current coaches. If they aren't putting a winning team on the field then they need to find another line of work.

You act like every teacher in the building is doing a great job. If a teacher is not producing results then they should find a new line of work as well. I think we spend too much on programs like AVID but at the end of the day it helps kids so I shut up and get on board. Athletics helps kids, there is no arguing that fact.

[onetime]

Mesquite tax rate: 1.42
Clear Creek tax rate: 1.36
Killeen ISD tax rate: 1.13

KISD receives that Federal Impact Aid because we are charged with educating thousands of Ft. Hood-related students whose parents do not pay KISD property taxes. (Those who do own property, of course, pay those taxes.) Other districts do not get Impact Aid because they do not have the responsibility for educating those students.

(I'm finding interesting data on:

http://public-school-districts.findthedata.org

You can search individual school districts and find lots of data. It appears at first glance that KISD has considerably less debt than either Mesquite ISD or Clear Creek ISD, but I'll have to look more closely at it later.

Be that as it may you can not discredit the money they receive from impact aid.

[onetime]

I snagged this from a website because I thought it was interesting

"We are going to see teacher shortages for the next few years due to several factors. Improving economy is causing shortages in 2 areas. Improved stock market means higher returns on 403bs and other investments so teachers who were holding on for a few extra years are no feeling like it is okay to go ahead and retire. The increase in private sector jobs is allowing early and mid career teachers who have been considering a change a chance to get out. The oil boom is really killing certain regions. If the economy continues to improve expect to see more teachers in that 4-10 year range to get out in the next year or two.

The other thing we have to cope with is growing populations. We have more and more kids in the pipeline and we are going to need more teachers. If our legislature keeps messing with retirements and continues to under fund then we are going to see more teachers leave and few younger ones step into those positions. If you are truly concerned about the teaching and public education then you need to start looking at candidates who support k-12 public education. Right now it is my goal to make sure that Dan Patrick does not get elected as Lt. Governor. If he gets in you can expect even more privatization efforts."

[CenTexDave]

Increase in private sector jobs?
Oh, you mean all those part time ones Obama is creating.

[bbh]

Be that as it may you can not discredit the money they receive from impact aid.

Who is discrediting it???? Not me. Without Impact Aid, educating our school population, including extracurriculars, would be almost impossible.

My point is that you shouldn't use Impact Aid $$$ as an argument for why KISD has lots more money to spend on athletics. I read your post to mean that KISD gets a sixth of its revenue from Impact Aid, while other districts get none, therefore KISD should be richer than the other districts. I'm saying your conclusion is flawed.

If that's not what you meant, then why did you bring Impact Aid into the discussion?

[bbh]

I snagged this from a website because I thought it was interesting

"We are going to see teacher shortages for the next few years due to several factors. Improving economy is causing shortages in 2 areas. Improved stock market means higher returns on 403bs and other investments so teachers who were holding on for a few extra years are no feeling like it is okay to go ahead and retire. The increase in private sector jobs is allowing early and mid career teachers who have been considering a change a chance to get out. The oil boom is really killing certain regions. If the economy continues to improve expect to see more teachers in that 4-10 year range to get out in the next year or two.

The other thing we have to cope with is growing populations. We have more and more kids in the pipeline and we are going to need more teachers. If our legislature keeps messing with retirements and continues to under fund then we are going to see more teachers leave and few younger ones step into those positions. If you are truly concerned about the teaching and public education then you need to start looking at candidates who support k-12 public education. Right now it is my goal to make sure that Dan Patrick does not get elected as Lt. Governor. If he gets in you can expect even more privatization efforts."

Link, please? I like context.

I'd also like to know where all those new jobs and improving economic indicators are. I must have missed it.

[onetime]

Who is discrediting it???? Not me. Without Impact Aid, educating our school population, including extracurriculars, would be almost impossible.

My point is that you shouldn't use Impact Aid $$$ as an argument for why KISD has lots more money to spend on athletics. I read your post to mean that KISD gets a sixth of its revenue from Impact Aid, while other districts get none, therefore KISD should be richer than the other districts. I'm saying your conclusion is flawed.

If that's not what you meant, then why did you bring Impact Aid into the discussion?

No I simply meant that what KISD lacks in property taxes is made up through impact aid.

[onetime]

Link, please? I like context.

I'd also like to know where all those new jobs and improving economic indicators are. I must have missed it.

It is in a private forum, sorry. The a lot of educators near oil fields have quit their jobs to work in the oil fields though.

[xzochye]

It is in a private forum, sorry.

Imagine that.

[onetime]

It is in a private forum, sorry. The a lot of educators near oil fields have quit their jobs to work in the oil fields though.

I get what you guys mean by grammar, after having the opportunity to read over this again. I was traveling in a car at the time, oops.

[Night Owl]

I get what you guys mean by grammar, after having the opportunity to read over this again. I was traveling in a car at the time, oops.
Hope you were not driving, but that might help explain some of what you have posted.

[onetime]

The list of wants and needs to bring KISD back to athletic prominence

1. Increase Stipend across the board - Football/basketball/baseball/softball/volleyball/soccer/golf/tennis/swimming/wrestling/ etc
2. Provide 2 athletic periods to all football coaches - Allowing the freshman and the older kids to have a full staff at their disposal
3. Provide 2 athletic periods to head basketball/baseball and 1st assistant - allowing the freshman to be in a different athletic period
4. Upgrade the workout facilities at these places, KHS facilities are 20 plus years old with workout equipment used during the cold war, Rocky's trainer would have laughed at the conditions of that place.
5. Increase the stipend of the Athletic director/football coach - this should be between 88-96K, similar to the Cleveland sports teams, you have to pay a little more to attract quality people to an area like Killeen.
6. Require that all members of the coaching staff become CDL B certified and build this into their stipend, leave a bus on the campus and require that they drive to all locations that are less then a designated distance.
7. Attach their coaching position to their teaching position, making it harder to quit a sport or walk away altogether and retain a position.
8. Football coordinators will have one period off dedicated to athletics and that could be a one semester deal or year round
9. Increase the overall pay for all teachers which will again keep highly qualified teachers in place and less likely to move once a better position opens at another district. Familiarity with staff and students is a big plus, when you have new staff members every year, particularly new teachers, some want to come in and fail everyone, veterans as in all professions understand the process and are more likely to work with kids.
10. Provide high school coordinators with the opportunity to hire their middle school coaching staff
11. Pay the middle school coaches more
12. Attempt to provide 100% middle school feeders as close or as much as they can
13. Enforce the student school swapping UIL policy as much as possible. Students and parents should not have the ability or flexibility to send their kids wherever they want.
14. Promote from within as much as possible, Heights/Shoemaker/Ellison all went out and got coaches from out of the area, I am am going to bet money that the Heights guy will be gone in less then 3 years or sooner depending on their success, if Shoes coach has one more year like he had this year he will be gone by the end of the year, and Ellison coach will sit in that spot and continue to be woeful at it.

KHS head coach has been in the area for about 25 years now, wow, look how that works, I think they should attempt to duplicate that process as much as possible as far as hiring from within. I would like a list of all the coaches that K.I.S.D. has hired in that 25 year period.

15. A budget share, that would allow funds to be allocated somewhat equally to all of the schools.

[mac]

The list of wants and needs to bring KISD back to athletic prominence

1. Increase Stipend across the board - Football/basketball/baseball/softball/volleyball/soccer/golf/tennis/swimming/wrestling/ etc
2. Provide 2 athletic periods to all football coaches - Allowing the freshman and the older kids to have a full staff at their disposal
3. Provide 2 athletic periods to head basketball/baseball and 1st assistant - allowing the freshman to be in a different athletic period
4. Upgrade the workout facilities at these places, KHS facilities are 20 plus years old with workout equipment used during the cold war, Rocky's trainer would have laughed at the conditions of that place.
5. Increase the stipend of the Athletic director/football coach - this should be between 88-96K, similar to the Cleveland sports teams, you have to pay a little more to attract quality people to an area like Killeen.
6. Require that all members of the coaching staff become CDL B certified and build this into their stipend, leave a bus on the campus and require that they drive to all locations that are less then a designated distance.
7. Attach their coaching position to their teaching position, making it harder to quit a sport or walk away altogether and retain a position.
8. Football coordinators will have one period off dedicated to athletics and that could be a one semester deal or year round
9. Increase the overall pay for all teachers which will again keep highly qualified teachers in place and less likely to move once a better position opens at another district. Familiarity with staff and students is a big plus, when you have new staff members every year, particularly new teachers, some want to come in and fail everyone, veterans as in all professions understand the process and are more likely to work with kids.
10. Provide high school coordinators with the opportunity to hire their middle school coaching staff
11. Pay the middle school coaches more
12. Attempt to provide 100% middle school feeders as close or as much as they can
13. Enforce the student school swapping UIL policy as much as possible. Students and parents should not have the ability or flexibility to send their kids wherever they want.
14. Promote from within as much as possible, Heights/Shoemaker/Ellison all went out and got coaches from out of the area, I am am going to bet money that the Heights guy will be gone in less then 3 years or sooner depending on their success, if Shoes coach has one more year like he had this year he will be gone by the end of the year, and Ellison coach will sit in that spot and continue to be woeful at it.

KHS head coach has been in the area for about 25 years now, wow, look how that works, I think they should attempt to duplicate that process as much as possible as far as hiring from within. I would like a list of all the coaches that K.I.S.D. has hired in that 25 year period.

15. A budget share, that would allow funds to be allocated somewhat equally to all of the schools.

just imagine how much better an education we could provide our kids with if we didn't have athletic programs. sell all the fields. sell all the gyms. focus like a laser on education.....mac

[onetime]

just imagine how much better an education we could provide our kids with if we didn't have athletic programs. sell all the fields. sell all the gyms. focus like a laser on education.....mac

I would agree if we lived within a totalitarian or communist regime, where we could send the kids that struggle within school or do not see its importance to labor camps where they could gain a life skill, but the reality is that a decent amount of the KISD students attend school for the free meal, socialization, and athletics. Removing any one of these would diminish their reason to attend on a daily basis.

[mac]

I would agree if we lived within a totalitarian or communist regime, where we could send the kids that struggle within school or do not see its importance to labor camps where they could gain a life skill, but the reality is that a decent amount of the KISD students attend school for the free meal, socialization, and athletics. Removing any one of these would diminish their reason to attend on a daily basis.

wow......that might be a good thing. teahers would have more time to spend educating students who WANTED to learn! what a concept.....mac

[Night Owl]

The list of wants and needs to bring KISD back to athletic prominence

1. Increase Stipend across the board - Football/basketball/baseball/softball/volleyball/soccer/golf/tennis/swimming/wrestling/ etc
2. Provide 2 athletic periods to all football coaches - Allowing the freshman and the older kids to have a full staff at their disposal
3. Provide 2 athletic periods to head basketball/baseball and 1st assistant - allowing the freshman to be in a different athletic period
4. Upgrade the workout facilities at these places, KHS facilities are 20 plus years old with workout equipment used during the cold war, Rocky's trainer would have laughed at the conditions of that place.
5. Increase the stipend of the Athletic director/football coach - this should be between 88-96K, similar to the Cleveland sports teams, you have to pay a little more to attract quality people to an area like Killeen.
6. Require that all members of the coaching staff become CDL B certified and build this into their stipend, leave a bus on the campus and require that they drive to all locations that are less then a designated distance.
7. Attach their coaching position to their teaching position, making it harder to quit a sport or walk away altogether and retain a position.
8. Football coordinators will have one period off dedicated to athletics and that could be a one semester deal or year round
9. Increase the overall pay for all teachers which will again keep highly qualified teachers in place and less likely to move once a better position opens at another district. Familiarity with staff and students is a big plus, when you have new staff members every year, particularly new teachers, some want to come in and fail everyone, veterans as in all professions understand the process and are more likely to work with kids.
10. Provide high school coordinators with the opportunity to hire their middle school coaching staff
11. Pay the middle school coaches more
12. Attempt to provide 100% middle school feeders as close or as much as they can
13. Enforce the student school swapping UIL policy as much as possible. Students and parents should not have the ability or flexibility to send their kids wherever they want.
14. Promote from within as much as possible, Heights/Shoemaker/Ellison all went out and got coaches from out of the area, I am am going to bet money that the Heights guy will be gone in less then 3 years or sooner depending on their success, if Shoes coach has one more year like he had this year he will be gone by the end of the year, and Ellison coach will sit in that spot and continue to be woeful at it.

KHS head coach has been in the area for about 25 years now, wow, look how that works, I think they should attempt to duplicate that process as much as possible as far as hiring from within. I would like a list of all the coaches that K.I.S.D. has hired in that 25 year period.

15. A budget share, that would allow funds to be allocated somewhat equally to all of the schools.
Did Jesse or Al approve this post?

[Night Owl]

I would agree if we lived within a totalitarian or communist regime, where we could send the kids that struggle within school or do not see its importance to labor camps where they could gain a life skill, but the reality is that a decent amount of the KISD students attend school for the free meal, socialization, and athletics. Removing any one of these would diminish their reason to attend on a daily basis.
If kids are only in school for a free meal, socialization, and athletics then they are doing a disservice to the real students that are there to learn. It would be better if they didn't attend school.

[xzochye]

If kids are only in school for a free meal, socialization, and athletics then they are doing a disservice to the real students that are there to learn. It would be better if they didn't attend school.

Not entirely. If they are there for athletics then they are at least learning something. Remember, to play you have to pass, to pass you have to learn. If they didn't go to school at all they wouldn't be learning anything.

[RooDawg]

Why can't this section (High School Football) of the CentexTalk forum be used to conduct discussions about "High School Football" and include high school athletics without others imposing their own opinions of why there shouldn't be athletics in the schools?

Those of you who do that bring no USEFUL DIALOGUE to the discussion so why do you bother?

[Night Owl]

You don't want a opinion different than yours because you and your ilk don't want your secret exposed. Because we have an opinion about the huge waste of money wasted on athletics when classrooms don't have books, desks, paper and many other teaching aids. Why, because there is more of a focus on sports than academics. The focus of schools should on academics, but there is a certain group that thank the end all is sports.

I have heard of all the excuses coaches and supporters have used: building teamwork, self esteem, leadership, blah, blah, blah. How many athletes have left KISD and became successful? 10, 20. How many students not involved in athletics have left KISD ans became successful? 10,000, 20,000 or many more? Where is taxpayer money better spent?

[onetime]

I am all for the idea of someone providing a credible dissenting opinion, but as usual the trolls are out. That one troll that follows me across every forum has not noticed that higher ups never beef down, I doubt that will make sense though since your likely three times my age. Anywho, saying that athletics should not be in the landscape would be like me saying KISD should simply consolidate all of the athletic programs into one big power house, two things that will never happen. SO WHY EVEN BRING THEM UP?

[Dagobert II]

Not entirely. If they are there for athletics then they are at least learning something. Remember, to play you have to pass, to pass you have to learn. If they didn't go to school at all they wouldn't be learning anything. Sex and drugs seem to appeal to a lot of folks too. I mean, if we can just get them to come...

[Night Owl]

I am all for the idea of someone providing a credible dissenting opinion, but as usual the trolls are out. That one troll that follows me across every forum has not noticed that higher ups never beef down, I doubt that will make sense though since your likely three times my age. Anywho, saying that athletics should not be in the landscape would be like me saying KISD should simply consolidate all of the athletic programs into one big power house, two things that will never happen. SO WHY EVEN BRING THEM UP?
I have a credible disserting opinion than you, you just don't like that opinion. You can call me a troll but it just goes to prove you have a weak position.

I have never said that athletics should never be in the landscape. What I have said is there is too much money spent on athletics for the return on investment. If the only reason to have athletics is to get kids to come to school, as you stated, then that is a sad excuse for having athletics. The
primary reason for school is education, not sports.

There are other avenues for those that want to play games; YMCA, city leagues and many others. If sports is viable then they should support themselves and not depend on the taxpayer to support them. But that wouldn't work since you would be out of a job, so you only have your self interest at heart.

It is funny that you state that KISD should consolidate into one "big" powerhouse. That's all you think and care about is winning. I thought it was about teaching kids leadership, etc etc etc.

I am probably two or three times your age which means I have had two or three times more experience in life than you. What I have learned in my 60+ years is athletics is just a game and very few players ever make it in that business. Money is better spend on focusing kids on academics where they can get the tools to enable them to make a living to support themselves.

[onetime]

I have a credible disserting opinion than you, you just don't like that opinion. You can call me a troll but it just goes to prove you have a weak position.

I have never said that athletics should never be in the landscape. What I have said is there is too much money spent on athletics for the return on investment. If the only reason to have athletics is to get kids to come to school, as you stated, then that is a sad excuse for having athletics. The
primary reason for school is education, not sports.

There are other avenues for those that want to play games; YMCA, city leagues and many others. If sports is viable then they should support themselves and not depend on the taxpayer to support them. But that wouldn't work since you would be out of a job, so you only have your self interest at heart.

It is funny that you state that KISD should consolidate into one "big" powerhouse. That's all you think and care about is winning. I thought it was about teaching kids leadership, etc etc etc.

I am probably two or three times your age which means I have had two or three times more experience in life than you. What I have learned in my 60+ years is athletics is just a game and very few players ever make it in that business. Money is better spend on focusing kids on academics where they can get the tools to enable them to make a living to support themselves.

I am not a coach/teacher/educator, I could go into what I actually do, but it would blow your mind "WHO IS THE YELLOW KING?"

[xzochye]

I could go into what I actually do, but it would blow your mind

You give yourself way to much credit. I mean way WAY too much credit!

[Night Owl]

I am not a coach/teacher/educator, I could go into what I actually do, but it would blow your mind "WHO IS THE YELLOW KING?"
Thank the good Lord for that. You have put my mind at ease.

It takes a lot to blow my mind, so you probably are over estimating what you do.

[onetime]

You give yourself way to much credit. I mean way WAY too much credit!

True

[RooDawg]

Late night bird I will agree that athletics does not move student-athletes in to becoming professional athletes. In all of my years of coaching I have been involved with one athlete that has made it to the professional level and that has only been for a couple of years and not as a career. I believe I might have two more athletes that will have a chance to make it professionally. But those are the only 3 athletes that I can say has the ability to even have an opportunity at the professional level.

Now I will also tell you Old Wise One, that there are at least 10 times that many student-athletes that were granted opportunities to GO TO COLLEGE because of their athletic abilities. These opportunities would not have been offered to them without athletics. And I will even say some of them might not have graduated from high school without athletics.

Athletics is not in the business of creating professional athletes. Athletics is in the business of creating men and women who will know how to continue to move forward when faced with challenging situations, who will not back down just because someone said that they cannot do something, who will continue to motivate themselves and others and ask themselves "Why NOT me?" instead of "why me" when something bad happens to them.

For you to argue your point about athletics in regards to money is acceptable. But to state that athletics is not PART OF EDUCATION is almost irresponsible from an intelligent man such as yourself.

[mac]

Athletics is in the business of creating men and women who will know how to continue to move forward when faced with challenging situations, who will not back down just because someone said that they cannot do something, who will continue to motivate themselves and others and ask themselves "Why NOT me?" instead of "why me" when something bad happens to them..

but....but....what does any of that have to do with schooling and educating?.....aren't those the things that you get from home and family?.......mac

[Night Owl]

You need to learn how to READ. I have NEVER said athletics should not be part of education. What I have stated and will continue to argue is the vast amount of money spent on athletics. You state you have had ONE student mark it to the pro level and 20 or 30 have received scholarships. I ask, at what cost to other students?

Look at the temples of worship that have been built by high schools all in the name of sports. A 4 million dollar press box, countless fields for practice, the maintenance on those facilities, the cost of utilities, equipment, man hours spent, uniforms, transportation, etc, etc, etc. All this so the masses can go to the arena one night a week for about ten weeks to watch the gladiators on the field. I recall this happening about 3000 years ago. Players died in the arena then and kids die in the arena today. It's sad when you think about it. After 3000 years, we as humans, haven't learned a thing. We are still doing the same thing humans did 3000 years ago in the name of entertaining the masses.

[mac]

You need to learn how to READ. I have NEVER said athletics should not be part of education. What I have stated and will continue to argue is the vast amount of money spent on athletics. You state you have had ONE student mark it to the pro level and 20 or 30 have received scholarships. I ask, at what cost to other students?

Look at the temples of worship that have been built by high schools all in the name of sports. A 4 million dollar press box, countless fields for practice, the maintenance on those facilities, the cost of utilities, equipment, man hours spent, uniforms, transportation, etc, etc, etc. All this so the masses can go to the arena one night a week for about ten weeks to watch the gladiators on the field. I recall this happening about 3000 years ago. Players died in the arena then and kids die in the arena today. It's sad when you think about it. After 3000 years, we as humans, haven't learned a thing. We are still doing the same thing humans did 3000 years ago in the name of entertaining the masses.

be careful owl......there are many on this forum who have no interest in being accurate or comprehending what they read.......and they don't really think too highly of those who attempt to be accurate and clear......mac

[Night Owl]

I agree Mac but just because they don't like the truth doesn't mean they shouldn't hear the truth according to the Owl.

[mac]

I agree Mac but just because they don't like the truth doesn't mean they shouldn't hear the truth according to the Owl.

that's very true....nor that the truth should not be continually spoken whether others can keep up with it, comprehend and accept it or not.....mac